|
|
Post by MissyS on May 12, 2022 13:37:51 GMT -5
I was reading a somewhat lengthy article in the Weekly Eagle of Wichita Kansas July 28, 1881, entitled “Killing the Kid” toward the end it lists some names of men Billy the Kid had supposedly killed and there’s a name mentioned that I don’t recall ever reading about a John Garrish, it states that James Grant and John Garrish was shot and killed in Fort Sumner by the Kid a year prior which would have been sometime in 1880. I haven’t been able to find any info on anything about an incident involving him. Just wondering because there ought to be a reason or a source for the name being with the others, or the name was just made up to add more credence to Billy being a bad boy.  |
|
|
|
Post by noreaster on May 12, 2022 14:39:09 GMT -5
Thank you for posting this Missy. It is interesting that the article states he was 20 years old and 10 months. Perhaps just bad math...or not given it was prior to Ash Upson's perspective.
|
|
|
|
Post by MissyS on May 13, 2022 2:09:52 GMT -5
Thank you for posting this Missy. It is interesting that the article states he was 20 years old and 10 months. Perhaps just bad math...or not given it was prior to Ash Upson's perspective. I wonder just how that paper arrived at that exact age for Billy? It would come out to September as his birth month according to that article. It’s possible that age is not correct and just a guess, however it is interesting that the article was from a Wichita Kansas newspaper and the Antrims had resided in Wichita. It may be possible the Antrims had contacts there that were more acquainted with the family than Ash Upson was. |
|
|
|
Post by noreaster on May 13, 2022 12:20:32 GMT -5
Thank you for posting this Missy. It is interesting that the article states he was 20 years old and 10 months. Perhaps just bad math...or not given it was prior to Ash Upson's perspective. I wonder just how that paper arrived at that exact age for Billy? It would come out to September as his birth month according to that article. It’s possible that age is not correct and just a guess, however it is interesting that the article was from a Wichita Kansas newspaper and the Antrims had resided in Wichita. It may be possible the Antrims had contacts there that were more acquainted with the family than Ash Upson was. It's the preciseness of his stated age that makes me pause and wonder why be so precise unless you have an actual date as a reference...If so, what is the source. The article suggests a DOB of around September-October of 1860. The article also states he hailed from NY. Reading the article, it certainly propagates hearsay but I was wondering if that date corresponded to any other Candidates in the census records. It is suggestive that perhaps he would not have appeared in the 1860 NY records given his late fall birthdate...not sure. |
|
|
|
Post by MissyS on May 13, 2022 20:23:58 GMT -5
The article does have a few discrepancies, such as referring to the blacksmith that Billy shot as James J. Young instead of Frank (windy) Cahill, and probably the made up name of John Garrish and spelling of Robert (Bob) Beckwith as Robert Beckurts, so it’s questionable as to how factual it is, the misspellings are somewhat common in news articles back then though. The part about the age does sound like it’s precise, I agree, if it was just a guess it seems like they would have printed a round number only, like 20 years old, and not add the months to it. Catherine arrived in Wichita in the month of August, she lived there a year. if Billy and Joseph were with her they may have enrolled in school that same fall, if the boys attended school in Wichita perhaps the ages of the boys would be known by the school or teacher there. Catherine wasn’t in Wichita that long, but maybe long enough to establish a few friends so it’s very possible someone in Wichita knew some facts. There may have been other sources for the age determination. Its interesting that the Patrick McCarty family on the baptism record according to a letter from Rev. James B. Roberts, Church of St. Peter, New York City, to Jack DeMattos, March 24, 1979, it states Henry McCarty, son of Patrick McCarty and Catherine Devine McCarty, born 17 September 1859, was baptized 28 September 1859 by Rev. J. Conron. Both the birth record in NY and the Wichita article indicate the September birth month, it doesn’t confirm anything, I was just wondering when the discovery of that church record was?, maybe that was the source of the age in the Wichita article? The article was printed on July 28, 1881 a couple weeks after the shooting.
|
|
|
|
Post by Elwood on May 14, 2022 0:43:21 GMT -5
The article does have a few discrepancies, such as referring to the blacksmith that Billy shot as James J. Young instead of Frank (windy) Cahill, and probably the made up name of John Garrish and spelling of Robert (Bob) Beckwith as Robert Beckurts, so it’s questionable as to how factual it is, the misspellings are somewhat common in news articles back then though. The part about the age does sound like it’s precise, I agree, if it was just a guess it seems like they would have printed a round number only, like 20 years old, and not add the months to it. Catherine arrived in Wichita in the month of August, she lived there a year. if Billy and Joseph were with her they may have enrolled in school that same fall, if the boys attended school in Wichita perhaps the ages of the boys would be known by the school or teacher there. Catherine wasn’t in Wichita that long, but maybe long enough to establish a few friends so it’s very possible someone in Wichita knew some facts. There may have been other sources for the age determination. Its interesting that the Patrick McCarty family on the baptism record according to a letter from Rev. James B. Roberts, Church of St. Peter, New York City, to Jack DeMattos, March 24, 1979, it states Henry McCarty, son of Patrick McCarty and Catherine Devine McCarty, born 17 September 1859, was baptized 28 September 1859 by Rev. J. Conron. Both the birth record in NY and the Wichita article indicate the September birth month, it doesn’t confirm anything, I was just wondering when the discovery of that church record was?, maybe that was the source of the age in the Wichita article? The article was printed on July 28, 1881 a couple weeks after the shooting. Have you read the May 1969 Real West article by William J. Carson with the image of the Certificate of Baptism? It indicates: Patrick Henry McCarthy, son of Patrick McCarthy and Catherine Devine. Probably the same family on the 1860 federal census in NYC, in the First Ward; but not at 210 Greene Street, where they supposedly lived; McCarthy, not McCarty. When Patrick Henry McCarthy died in 1914, the names of the same parents are listed; McCarthy, not McCarty. Have you ever seen any newspaper articles that contained the name "Patrick Henry" as being the name of Billy the Kid? |
|
|
|
Post by Elwood on May 14, 2022 10:21:02 GMT -5
The article does have a few discrepancies, such as referring to the blacksmith that Billy shot as James J. Young instead of Frank (windy) Cahill, and probably the made up name of John Garrish and spelling of Robert (Bob) Beckwith as Robert Beckurts, so it’s questionable as to how factual it is, the misspellings are somewhat common in news articles back then though. The part about the age does sound like it’s precise, I agree, if it was just a guess it seems like they would have printed a round number only, like 20 years old, and not add the months to it. Catherine arrived in Wichita in the month of August, she lived there a year. if Billy and Joseph were with her they may have enrolled in school that same fall, if the boys attended school in Wichita perhaps the ages of the boys would be known by the school or teacher there. Catherine wasn’t in Wichita that long, but maybe long enough to establish a few friends so it’s very possible someone in Wichita knew some facts. There may have been other sources for the age determination. Its interesting that the Patrick McCarty family on the baptism record according to a letter from Rev. James B. Roberts, Church of St. Peter, New York City, to Jack DeMattos, March 24, 1979, it states Henry McCarty, son of Patrick McCarty and Catherine Devine McCarty, born 17 September 1859, was baptized 28 September 1859 by Rev. J. Conron. Both the birth record in NY and the Wichita article indicate the September birth month, it doesn’t confirm anything, I was just wondering when the discovery of that church record was?, maybe that was the source of the age in the Wichita article? The article was printed on July 28, 1881 a couple weeks after the shooting. Have you read Real West magazine, January 1980 "The search for Billy the Kid's roots is over " On page 26, it states, verbatim "Patrick McCarthy (with "H"), son of Patrick ..." There is nothing that states "Henry McCarty" in that sentence. Since "Henry McCarty" is a name that is associated with Billy the Kid in the 1873 marriage record in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and also later in Silver City, New Mexico, it is easy to confuse the issue by reading more into, than is there. |
|
|
|
Post by MissyS on May 14, 2022 13:47:13 GMT -5
The article does have a few discrepancies, such as referring to the blacksmith that Billy shot as James J. Young instead of Frank (windy) Cahill, and probably the made up name of John Garrish and spelling of Robert (Bob) Beckwith as Robert Beckurts, so it’s questionable as to how factual it is, the misspellings are somewhat common in news articles back then though. The part about the age does sound like it’s precise, I agree, if it was just a guess it seems like they would have printed a round number only, like 20 years old, and not add the months to it. Catherine arrived in Wichita in the month of August, she lived there a year. if Billy and Joseph were with her they may have enrolled in school that same fall, if the boys attended school in Wichita perhaps the ages of the boys would be known by the school or teacher there. Catherine wasn’t in Wichita that long, but maybe long enough to establish a few friends so it’s very possible someone in Wichita knew some facts. There may have been other sources for the age determination. Its interesting that the Patrick McCarty family on the baptism record according to a letter from Rev. James B. Roberts, Church of St. Peter, New York City, to Jack DeMattos, March 24, 1979, it states Henry McCarty, son of Patrick McCarty and Catherine Devine McCarty, born 17 September 1859, was baptized 28 September 1859 by Rev. J. Conron. Both the birth record in NY and the Wichita article indicate the September birth month, it doesn’t confirm anything, I was just wondering when the discovery of that church record was?, maybe that was the source of the age in the Wichita article? The article was printed on July 28, 1881 a couple weeks after the shooting. Have you read Real West magazine, January 1980 "The search for Billy the Kid's roots is over " On page 26, it states, verbatim "Patrick McCarthy (with "H"), son of Patrick ..." There is nothing that states "Henry McCarty" in that sentence. Since "Henry McCarty" is a name that is associated with Billy the Kid in the 1873 marriage record in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and also later in Silver City, New Mexico, it is easy to confuse the issue by reading more into, than is there. I’ve personally never was convinced that the baptism record is the same family of Billy the Kid, for the same reasons mentioned and there is no evidence it was. The first name “Patrick” was not associated with Billy the Kid in newspapers or interviews with people that knew him. I don’t believe there’s any evidence of Catherine Antrim using the name “Devine” either, or any of the family using the name McCarthy with an (H). In the deed or papers signed by Catherine in Kansas looks like she signed it simply Catherine McCarty without the (H) and no “Devine” I just referred to that baptism record because I was guessing it could have been the source for the determining age or September birth month printed in the Wichita article. I was guessing the Wichita news journalists may have seen it in another paper before theirs was printed. I don’t know when that birth record was first mentioned with the belief it’s Billy the Kid and his family, was it early or much later? Haven’t seen the Real West magazine, but I’v seen the church record discussed using both spellings McCarty and McCarthy for some reason? maybe the sources weren’t aware of the original document had an (H) in the name? I should have included the (H) in my post referring to it since the original spelling was McCarthy, Thank You Elwood for pointing that out. |
|
