|
Post by Wayne Land on May 18, 2018 9:40:50 GMT -5
"The information on the WWI draft card is correct"
Well, that is also an opinion. Facts do not always reveal the truth. Especially when the facts listed are about the wrong person.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 18, 2018 13:49:10 GMT -5
“Well, that is also an opinion. “
Not an opinion, but a conclusion based on the facts cited.
William Bonney was an alias of Henry McCarty.
Brushy Bill was an alias of Oliver Pleasant Roberts. None of Brushy Bill’s amazing exploits have ever been confirmed with credible evidence. None of Brushy Bill’s supposed relatives have ever been located in cemetery, death, or census records, with two exceptions: Martha Roberts Heath, identified by Brushy as a cousin, was the half-sister of Oliver Pleasant Roberts. Elizabeth Ferguson, identified by Brushy as his step-mother, was the mother of Oliver Pleasant Roberts.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on May 18, 2018 14:32:16 GMT -5
OK. Let's call it a conclusion. In that case I also get to call my statement a conclusion. Is a "conclusion" necessarily the truth? If it is based on facts then is it also a fact in itself? Does it depend on what "is" is?
Isn't it a bit pointless to get buried in a debate over verbiage? The "fact" is, you have no proof of your conclusions and neither do I. Oh, I know you think you have proof. Your facts are your proof and you simply refuse to accept that this person Oliver P. Roberts might have not been our Brushy. Therefore, for you, any fact about Oliver P. Roberts becomes a fact about Brushy and I just don't accept that.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 18, 2018 16:00:37 GMT -5
Brushy Bill is a nebulous creation of Oliver Pleasant Roberts, complete with incredible exploits over three continents, and an imaginary family. Knowledge of Lincoln County events does not guarantee Brushy was there, for the description of events in”The Saga of Billy the Kid”, published in 1926, was very similar to Brushy’s recitation. There is no census, marriage, death, or land record of an individual named Brushy Bill Roberts or William Henry Roberts.
Different opinions are generated from the same facts.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on May 19, 2018 14:35:34 GMT -5
Are you aware of the current investigation into what is alleged to be a DNA match between a descendant of J. Frank Dalton and Jesse James? If this is verified, confirmed, would that alter your opinion about Brushy at all, even just a little? After all, Dalton did identify Brushy as Billy The Kid. I'm just curious.
|
|
|
Post by montanas on May 19, 2018 17:45:42 GMT -5
Wayne, where did you hear about this DNA possible match? I can find nothing on the net that is not a decade old
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 19, 2018 21:25:13 GMT -5
“Are you aware of the current investigation into what is alleged to be a DNA match between a descendant of J. Frank Dalton and Jesse James? If this is verified, confirmed, would that alter your opinion about Brushy at all, even just a little? After all, Dalton did identify Brushy as Billy The Kid. I'm just curious.”
NO. A blind cow will jump over the moon before that hypothetical match occurs. And Brushy Bill identified J. Frank Dalton as Jesse James. You scratch my back; I'll scratch yours There seems to have been a contest between J. Frank Dalton and Brushy Bill to see who was the biggest bull shipper west of the Mississippi.
Wayne, When J. Frank Dalton was a patient in the V A hospital in Dallas in 16 February 1948 with a broken leg that would not heal, the hospital wanted to contact his relatives and advise them of his condition. The VA hospital had no record of any relatives, and requested the American Red Cross to contact the Confederate Pension Board in Austin. J. Frank Dalton had applied for, and received a pension, for his alleged service with Quantrill’s guerrillas. No relatives were named in his pension application. J. Frank Dalton claimed to have served under William T. “Bloody Bill” Anderson, who was killed in Ray County, Missouri, 26 October 1864. J. Frank Dalton said that William Anderson was not killed, and had lived for many years in Brown County, Texas. My great uncle, William Columbus Anderson, came to Brown County from Stone County, Missouri, in 1863, and died in 1947.
Unlike Oliver P. “Brushy Bill” Roberts, J. Frank Dalton left no paper trail prior to 1930. There were no relatives in his household in McLennan County, Texas,, in the 1930 census, in the 1940 census of Gregg County.
Dalton said my great uncle, William Columbus Anderson was William T. “Bloody Bill” Anderson. He applied for a pension as Frank Dalton with birth date of 8 August 1848, and said he had been a bona fide resident of Texas since then. When he became Jesse Woodson James in Lawton, Oklahoma on 19 May 1948, he changed his name, birth date, and birth place, and signed an affidavit that he was born 5 September 1847 in Missouri.
Neither J. Frank Dalton nor Brushy Bill Roberts was well acquainted with the truth.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on May 20, 2018 11:08:30 GMT -5
So "if" there is a DNA match that proves J. Frank Dalton was Jesse, your cow needs to get a rocket booster and some astronaut gear ready. There just may be an announcement coming soon. We'll see.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 20, 2018 13:03:38 GMT -5
No rocket booster necessary.
The 1907 will of Jesse’s mother, Zerelda Cole James Samuel: Extract - “My body I commit to the earth to be buried by Executor, hereinafter named, in the Baptist Cemetery at Kearney, in Said County of Clay, between my two dead sons, Archibald Peyton Samuel and Jesse W. James, in such decent manner as shall befit my condition and circumstances in life”
Facts are always preferable to an incredible story, improbable theory, and an imaginary conspiracy to cover-up of Jesse's death. Two impostors, William John James and J. Frank Dalton, both hired the imaginary Charlie Bigelow to occupy Jesse's coffin. Brushy Bill nominated the imaginary Billy Barlow to fill his coffin.
|
|
|
Shackles
May 20, 2018 15:27:29 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by wannabe12 on May 20, 2018 15:27:29 GMT -5
The only mention of this was back in 2000 when they exhumed Dalton. They were supposed to compare his DNA to a grandson of Jesse. Haven’t found any mention of what the results were. Where did they find descendants of Dalton??? Anything I’ve read says he listed no relatives on his confederate pension forms or anywhere else??. I honestly haven’t read much on Dalton so far.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on May 20, 2018 16:12:42 GMT -5
TTT. You still didn't answer my question, did you? If this totally impossible, non-existent DNA match was to somehow show up and be proven valid, would it change your opinion about Brushy even a little bit? Answer my question if you dare. I'm not going to spill the beans here and steal anyone's thunder. I've probably said too much already. But there is a possibility. So, can you answer the question I asked? Yes or No.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 20, 2018 16:16:37 GMT -5
wannabe12, Oops!! The wrong body was exhumed. "The Granbury Cemetery Exhumation (May 30, 2000)
Bud Hardcastle - an amateur historian and used car salesman from Purcell, Oklahoma, and a long-time researcher of the Jesse James/J. Frank Dalton mystery - is one of those who (for several reasons) has been unwilling to accept the conclusions of the Starrs exhumation team. In the mid-1990s, Hardcastle joined forces with three sons of Jesse Cole James. These brothers - Jessie Quanah James, Sr., Burleigh Dale James, and Charles A. James - all believed that Dalton was their grandfather, and that Dalton really was the famous outlaw Jesse James. J. Frank Dalton was buried in the Granbury Cemetery at Granbury, Hood County, Texas. Hardcastle and the three James brothers decided to request an exhumation order from the Hood County (Texas) Court, so they could have Dalton's remains exhumed and DNA-tested in an attempt to determine - once and for all - if Dalton really was Jesse James.
Attorneys for Hardcastle and his associates filed a request for an exhumation order with the Hood County Clerk's Office on June 14, 1996. At the exhumation hearing held in September 1996, Hood County judge Don Cleveland denied their request, ruling that the attorneys had not provided him with any compelling evidence as to why he should approve the request. On July 20, 1999, Hardcastle's attorney Steven J. Reid filed a second request for an exhumation order with the Hood County Clerk's Office. It appears that after filing the second request on July 20, 1999, attorney Reid filed at least one "Amended Application for Exhumation." These "amended applications" contained detailed genealogical and historical information which Hardcastle and his associates considered to be the "compelling evidence" which Judge Cleveland had stated was lacking at the time of the first exhumation hearing in September 1996. Hood County judge Linda Steen approved this request at an exhumation hearing held on February 17, 2000.
The exhumation of J. Frank Dalton's remains at Granbury Cemetery was conducted on May 30, 2000, but unfortunately the wrong remains - the remains of William Henry Holland (1882-1927) - were exhumed. Consequently, most researchers believe that J. Frank Dalton's remains have yet to be exhumed and DNA-tested, but rumors have been circulating in the treasure-hunting and conspiracy communities that Dalton's remains were secretly exhumed - shortly after the failed public exhumation - and that DNA-testing of the remains has been completed. If this is indeed the case, the test results of Dalton's DNA analysis have never been revealed to the public."
"These brothers - Jessie Quanah James, Sr., Burleigh Dale James, and Charles A. James - all believed that Dalton was their grandfather, and that Dalton really was the famous outlaw Jesse James." These are sons of Jessie Cole James, born about 1882. The family lived in Logan County, AR, in the 1930 and 1940 census. Just like J. Frank Dalton, no paper trail of Jessie Cole James has been found prior to the 1930 census.
Hardcastle supports conspiracy theories that J. Frank Dalton was Jesse Woodson James; Brushy Bill Roberts was Billy the Kid; and that John St. Helen was John Wilkes Booth, the assassin of Abraham Lincoln.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 20, 2018 16:31:20 GMT -5
"TTT. You still didn't answer my question, did you?"
Wayne, the answer is no.
Why would anyone believe a word Dalton said? He lied about his date of birth. He lied about his place of birth. He wrote to his congressman, Lindley Beckworth, that he had been gassed in the line of duty in WWI while fighting with the Canadian army in France. He was only about 68 when WWI began.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on May 20, 2018 19:50:27 GMT -5
I suspected as much. So his acknowledgement of Brushy as Billy The Kid really wouldn't matter even if Dalton really was Jesse James. Basically because he lied about some other stuff. That is interesting.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 20, 2018 20:59:08 GMT -5
"Basically because he lied about some other stuff. That is interesting."
What is really interesting is that you doubt the fact that Zeralda's will directed that she be buried between her two dead sons; that Jesse was initially buried in Zerelda's front yard; and that numerous contemporary newspaper articles reported Jesse's death. Have you ever bothered to search the website, "Chronicling America"?
I would not believe Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid if Harry Truman said he was. There are no facts to support the theory that Brushy Bill was William Henry Roberts. Harry Truman is just a little more credible that J. Frank Dalton.
|
|