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Post by kerry on Sept 13, 2021 4:13:03 GMT -5
I won't defend or criticize Morrison's qualifications, but, I do agree he was no college educated historian. Consider this though, Gale Cooper, who is an author and does stand against any theories outside of the accepted BTK story is a psychiatrist. Not to say she is not well versed on BTK in her own right, I don't think she is formally schooled as a historian. It wasn't my impression Bob Boze Bell or Drew Gomber are either, and they are experts on the BTK history. I may disagree with these three on some points, especially over the events of July 14th, but they are all well versed in aspects of western history. So, I don't know how important Morrison's education might be when you him hold up against our modern BTK experts and researchers. Gale Cooper is anti Brushy militant and called Brushy a crazy old fool quite a few times like many others status quo people. I dont agree with everything she writes but she know how to write a good book. " The Santa Fe ring vs Billy the Kid" is one of them, and I recommend it. Coming back to her calling Brushy and old fool... Why did she wrote a book of 888 pages about it if she s so convinced he was a fraud?? I think its weird a forensic scientist would go full legal to prevent historical exhumations and DNA gathering-- but weird has always been normal for this story.
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Post by chivato88 on Sept 13, 2021 4:32:11 GMT -5
Gale Cooper is anti Brushy militant and called Brushy a crazy old fool quite a few times like many others status quo people. I dont agree with everything she writes but she know how to write a good book. " The Santa Fe ring vs Billy the Kid" is one of them, and I recommend it. Coming back to her calling Brushy and old fool... Why did she wrote a book of 888 pages about it if she s so convinced he was a fraud?? I think its weird a forensic scientist would go full legal to prevent historical exhumations and DNA gathering-- but weird has always been normal for this story. I totally agree, I dont understand why she blocked it, I tought she would be for it... Maybe she's afraid that Brushy might be the real deal
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Post by kerry on Sept 13, 2021 5:30:40 GMT -5
I think its weird a forensic scientist would go full legal to prevent historical exhumations and DNA gathering-- but weird has always been normal for this story. I totally agree, I dont understand why she blocked it, I tought she would be for it... Maybe she's afraid that Brushy might be the real deal Yeah -- instead of being the very person that could put the matter beyond reasonable doubt...either way- the scientist sided with the historian. Where as the two Lawmen have been a breath of fresh air - innovative and open minded-Sederwell wanted to ensure justice was done for the two deputies using modern techniques on an old crime scene-obviously the way forward to finding BTK's true burial site..that they weren't Brushy Bill fans added objectivity - I,think they definitely found John Miller due to,the bullet hole through the left shoulder blade...
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Post by CP on Sept 13, 2021 21:24:41 GMT -5
Good points. I don't get some of these authors and experts trying to beat history into submission to fit what they want it to be. I really feel Brushy could be the real deal, I had even thought John Miller's story was tantalizing for a while, but, if something came to light tomorrow that proved Garrett's version was true I would have to accept it. ( I doubt that would happen) But, the point is all the evidence should be considered, even if an author doesn't like Brushy, consider his story. I was surprised that Bob Boze Bell, who I respect put Mckinney's supposed account of tying up Paulita Maxwell in his new book. Mckinney also had supposedly said that he shot someone that night, and another story he told was that Pat shot the wrong guy. So, if you are Bob Boze Bell why cherry pick one Kip Mckinney story and ignore that rest?
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Post by kerrydd on Sept 14, 2021 1:51:36 GMT -5
Good points. I don't get some of these authors and experts trying to beat history into submission to fit what they want it to be. I really feel Brushy could be the real deal, I had even thought John Miller's story was tantalizing for a while, but, if something came to light tomorrow that proved Garrett's version was true I would have to accept it. ( I doubt that would happen) But, the point is all the evidence should be considered, even if an author doesn't like Brushy, consider his story. I was surprised that Bob Boze Bell, who I respect put Mckinney's supposed account of tying up Paulita Maxwell in his new book. Mckinney also had supposedly said that he shot someone that night, and another story he told was that Pat shot the wrong guy. So, if you are Bob Boze Bell why cherry pick one Kip Mckinney story and ignore that rest? The Paulita Maxwell myth was more acceptable than the fact that it was her adopted sister-family servant and Navajo Indian- Deluvina who was devotedly infatuated with BTK and who took at scarf to him in Fort Sumner jail,receiving a copy of the tin type in return... Paulita said she stood beside her brother during the debrief after the shooting. Pat would have known the Mexican community would not tolerate such an outrage against a daughter of Lucien Maxwell. The Lawmen did watch Charlie's dwelling for a time before Pat Garrett announced he wanted to speak privately to Pete Maxwell before they left Fort Sumner...what happened next according to Poe- was devine intervention.
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Post by CP on Sept 14, 2021 20:28:08 GMT -5
That makes sense, I can't see Pete Maxwell saying to Garrett, "hey, tie up my sister". With the Maxwell family being so influential that wouldn't fly.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 13:17:07 GMT -5
That makes sense, I can't see Pete Maxwell saying to Garrett, "hey, tie up my sister". With the Maxwell family being so influential that wouldn't fly. Pat Garrett went there to scare information out of Pete Maxwell, in my view. The last time he had captured the Kid, at Stinking Springs, they stopped at the Maxwell's for dinner and the Maxwell's were going to help Billy escape using Paulita. That is when Deluvina gave Billy the scarf. The one that Brushy had 69 years later.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 13:43:02 GMT -5
I won't defend or criticize Morrison's qualifications, but, I do agree he was no college educated historian. Consider this though, Gale Cooper, who is an author and does stand against any theories outside of the accepted BTK story is a psychiatrist. Not to say she is not well versed on BTK in her own right, I don't think she is formally schooled as a historian. It wasn't my impression Bob Boze Bell or Drew Gomber are either, and they are experts on the BTK history. I may disagree with these three on some points, especially over the events of July 14th, but they are all well versed in aspects of western history. So, I don't know how important Morrison's education might be when you him hold up against our modern BTK experts and researchers. CP, Many who are described as "historians" are actually amateur historians. "The basic qualification for a professional historian is a postgraduate degree in history. With an MA in history, you can become a teacher and researcher or enter a field of work related to history, such as archive or museum work." Historians for years have said things about Billy the Kid that either have been proven to be untrue or the story is shot full of holes. Their view that he was born in New York on November 23, 1859, is a prime example. They base this on Ash Upson writing this in The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid. November 23 just happens to Upson's birthday as well. They, including Mr. Mark Lee Gardner, insist upon this date, solely because it was recorded by Mr. Upson and "no documentation" exist otherwise, which is rubbish. The job of the historian is not to write down what someone else wrote, but to check the facts for themselves. There is a census that is probably William Henry Roberts in Blanco, Texas in 1870, suggesting that he was born in January of 1861, it looks like. His parents are James and Elizabeth Roberts. Did not mean to put the census twice. truewestmagazine.com/billy-the-kid-2/
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Post by leeb on Sept 15, 2021 13:54:49 GMT -5
'Untrue or shot full of holes '. That's old brushy's story in a nutshell.
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Post by kerry on Sept 15, 2021 15:07:44 GMT -5
'Untrue or shot full of holes '. That's old brushy's story in a nutshell. The haunting words : TRUTH & HISTORY on BTK's 1940 headstone - may have tempted Brushy to have a final say.. after death. It was said to have diappeared just after Brushy visited the cemetery in July 1950. It was found abandoned in a Granbury field 25 years later. Did Brushy intend that attractive little stone to be his? Did secret executors lose their nerve and some time after Brushy's death - pay for the stonework he has today? One thing for sure - that wonderful testament to the stonemason's craft as well as BTK 's life... was not going to be denied its place in history.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 16:29:21 GMT -5
'Untrue or shot full of holes '. That's old brushy's story in a nutshell. Okay. Well, instead of being sarcastic, subjective why not use facts to attempt to refute what someone like me who you do not agree with says? I am not interested in sarcasm and am only interested in pursuing facts objectively.
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Post by kerry on Sept 18, 2021 23:21:28 GMT -5
'Untrue or shot full of holes '. That's old brushy's story in a nutshell. The haunting words : TRUTH & HISTORY on BTK's 1940 headstone - may have tempted Brushy to have a final say.. after death. It was said to have diappeared just after Brushy visited the cemetery in July 1950. It was found abandoned in a Granbury field 25 years later. Did Brushy intend that attractive little stone to be his? Did secret executors lose their nerve and some time after Brushy's death - pay for the stonework he has today? One thing for sure - that wonderful testament to the stonemason's craft as well as BTK 's life... was not going to be denied its place in history. Why did the stonemason put "Truth and History" on Billy's 1940 stone ?? He could have put: "Truth and Justice" "Truth and Honor" or even "Truth and Consequences"....I think we all know - truth is not the same thing as history.. that the accepted history is always written by the victor not the defeated: Last Stand Hill for example... Obviously the mason(who put his name on the stone) believed the "authentic" history of BTK's death 60 years earlier-was the truth-as do official historians to this day....
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Post by kerry on Sept 19, 2021 1:47:20 GMT -5
Why did the stonemason put "Truth and History" on Billy's 1940 stone ?? He could have put: "Truth and Justice" "Truth and Honor" or even "Truth and Consequences"....I think we all know - truth is not the same thing as history.. that the accepted history is always written by the victor not the defeated: Last Stand Hill for example... Obviously the mason(who put his name on the stone) believed the "authentic" history of BTK's death 60 years earlier-was the truth-as do official historians to this day.... Perhaps the mason believed truth and history were separated here and therefore he wrote that? Yes Ron - I'd like to think that was his intention ... something not right.Warner was advertizing his craftmanship as well as giving Billy a stone of his own
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Post by RonBk on Sept 19, 2021 3:08:48 GMT -5
So it was a smaller part of stone that was added upon the already existing New Mexico grave? And that piece was subsequently removed by someone (perhaps Brushy) and later recovered from a field in Texas? Are there any more info on this subject, photos etc? Very interesting!
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Post by kerry on Sept 19, 2021 4:00:48 GMT -5
So it was a smaller part of stone that was added upon the already existing New Mexico grave? And that piece was subsequently removed by someone (perhaps Brushy) and later recovered from a field in Texas? Are there any more info on this subject, photos etc? Very interesting! Granbury is only 30 miles from Hico and was home to J Frank Dalton in 1950... The smaller gray stone is for BTK and was donated in 1940 -and stolen twice... The big white "Pals" stone went in 1931-32... its location was just an estimate as the grave had been unmarked and the grave yard devastated and left enclosed only by wire for at least 30 years. It is tempting to make assumptions- especially when history masks sanitizes or even obliterates the truth...
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