Salazar's BTK picture

[jgaines]

In George Coe's autobiography,  He states that upon visiting Ygenio Salazar in the 1930's,   Salazar's wife opened up a locked chest and pulled out a picture of Billy the Kid to show George , which she was very proud of.   Anyone have more info on this picture ? 

[mckinley412]

You might not get much response to this so if I may, I will go ahead and write a bunch of non-coherent stuff that might not mean anything and could possibly lead you further off track. I kind of know what you are talking about but my memory plays tricks on me. So here is what comes from my faulty and sometimes inebriated brain. I remember somebody mentioning a photo like this. There were four tintypes made of the famous one. Two were found and two we never heard from again. I tend to believe in my own dilapidated brain that Pat sent his copy off to Chicago and that is the third one that has never been found, so it leaves one other tintype that somebody else owned. Now here is where my memory starts playing tricks. Did I read somewhere that the one you are talking about actually had him on a horse??? I think I remember that from somewhere. There are alleged photos of Billy on a horse but if I had to pick one out I know which one I would pick. And he doesn't really look like Brushy. I do pretty much, and depending on what day you ask me, I might say definitely believe Brushy was the Kid but there's those days when I think maybe he wasn't. What sucks is that I know somebody that has tapes of him and they ain't giving them up and I know he does have them but he just ain't interested enough to do something with them but he won't let them go either. It was like when my Grandma wouldn't get rid of all her moldy VHS tapes. I can dig the photo of him on the horse out of my B Files. (B for Billy) - (About 22 some-odd letters behind my X Files) (X Files is just some files I have that record rare words that start with X) I'll dig the pic I'm talking about out if you want. It was the one that has a lone cowboy on a horse with a building behind him and the building was matched to a building that is or was recently standing in Lincoln, NM I believe.

[mckinley412]

Sorry about those sideways pictures. Also my phone is so crappy that they are not as clear as the original.  You can find them on the internet somewhere but I don't know where.  I had to pull these out of my hard copies.  I make hard copies of everything when I can afford it.  I'm not saying I have a dossier on each and everyone of you but if I could....    hmmm..    anyway. Maybe nmjames or somebody else on here would know. 
(pic includes modern photo next to old one)

[nmjames]

mckinley412,

The picture you have posted was taken in Lincoln. The old building is the Montano Store and is still standing in Lincoln. I feel just behind the horse, you can see part of a wall and a sign on the ground. I feel this was a drug store run by James A. Tomlinson. Tomlinson first came to the Las Vegas area in 1877. In Janurary 1878 he moved to Lincoln and practiced Medicine. He moved to White Oaks in 1880. In 1884 he moved back to Lincoln and lived there until 1890. It is said he operated the drug store between 1884 and 1890. I feel the picture may have been taken during this time. A copy of the picture was sent to me in 2008.

I have read that George Coe use to give out pictures of Billy the Kid to certain people that came to visit him. I ask his grandson if he knew about the picture. He did not. I feel it was just a picture like the tintype
but don't know.

[jgaines]

Thank you McKinley . Very interesting information. All I can really take from the Salazar deal, is I think the Salazars really did have a picture of Billy, or else Coe would have likely remarked otherwise when shown the picture.

[RonBk]

Here is a clearer version of that photo:



And here is an interesting discussion about it (plus one other photo) with Michael Anthony Giudicissi:
youtu.be/qUuBASxmBb4

[montanas]

There is a study online about the history of mud bricks in New Mexico. It shows that most were either 4 inches thick, but some were 3.5". According to a quick count of the number of layers in the wall, it looks to be right at 14 layers when you run a straight line across from the withers and not the rump. This would make the horse to be 56" high if the bricks are 4" and 47" at 3.5". This horse is either 14 hands or a little over 12. I cannot figure the kid riding a twelve, or just under 13 hand horse. I think it is probably closer to 14. If you count the number of rows of bricks from the riders waist right where the arm and body come together and count the rows of bricks up to the top of the hair where it differentiates with the hat it looks to be nine rows. This would make his torso 36". Billy is said to have been 5,8" out of boots. If this is him, then it means that from the waist down he is 32". I am 5,11". From feet to waist I am 40", making my upper half 31". I realize there are other variables, and we really do not have the exact numbers, but I just don't believe this can be the kid. Even on a small horse like that, he appears to be to long. I ride with a man who is 5,9" who rides a a 13.5 hand mustang, and he does not look nearly as long on it as this guy does. As for his appearance, I can see some facial similarities to Billie. I also see what might be a pinky ring on the right hand. I don't believe, either, that this is a prop horse. The rigging is to good for that. The silver bit, and just the way it is set up looks the part of a horse that is used. Also, the fact that the rider has what looks to be a quirt attached to his left wrist, the rope on the left side, and him holding the reins with his right hand indicates this guy is the rider and it is his horse. I realize the kid was said to be ambidextrus, but we know that he was predominantly right handed. The sign on the ground reads, "...store", so we know the image has already been flipped to the correct direction. Would love to hear more thoughts

[RonBk]

Excellent detective work Montanas. I have to agree with your conclusion, this guy is to tall and is probably not Billie. How do we know Billie was predominantly right handed? As I have understood that claim is based only on the fact he has a right handed holster visible in the Dedrick tintype, and I don’t think that is enough to prove anything. First of all, its not impossible at all Billie had two holsters in that photo but only one of them is visible. Its also possible that the other holster and gun were laid to the side at the photo opportunity, or maybe they were at the gunsmith for repairs. It could also be, as Mckinley has pointed out previously, left handed holsters were simply hard to acquire. So how do we know for sure Billie was predominantly right handed?

[montanas]

Ronnback, good points. I should have said "...the indications seem to lean towards his being predominantly right handed..." I cannot quote any author who has said the he was only right handed. I do remember reading, I think, in one of the books about Brushy, that he was ambidextrous, but mostly used his right hand. Can't remember which book or the exact statement. As for the photo, there is also the fact that the stirrups are set correctly for this fellow. Of course it is possible that if it wasn't his horse, whoever's it was could have been the same height. And for the provenance, that Tomlinson wrote on the back Billy (spelling ?) the Kid, we can't prove either way whether he is actually the one who wrote it or not. Someone else could have written it years later, assuming that it was the kid. If I put myself into the shoes of Tomlinson, and knew that this was the kid, I would have put the date also. Now, there is always the possibility that the photo was made before the kid became famous, if it is him, and Tomlinson wrote the name at a later time. Perhapsh thinking to himself, "Oh, I remember taking a picture of the kid back in ?. I need to dig it up." So he goes and finds it, and writes the name. Speculations all around, I know. But that's in large part what makes this whole thing about looking into his life an enjoyment

[RonBk]

There is one photo of Brushy where he is holding a revolver in his right hand and a model 73 carbine in his left. So whether Brushy were predominantly right or left handed, either way he probably had a preference for holding the revolver right handed when equipped with both revolver and rifle. Did Brushy hold his guns that way because he knew the Dedrick tintype was reversed? This photo was obviously taken before it was discovered the tintype was reversed, so at the time everyone thought Billie was left handed. So either Brushy knew the tintype was reversed before everyone else did, or he simply held his guns the same way he usually did. Just like when he took that photo in front of Beaver Smiths saloon.

[chivato88]

In the Ma'am Jones book, John asked Billy if he could shoot from his left hand, Billy replied yes but not as good as my right

[montanas]

It would be nice to know how many of the other regulators, if any were true lefties

[nmjames]

Charlie Bowdre was left-handed. In the picture of him and Manuela, he was wearing it cross draw style.

nmjames

[nmjames]

I think I should have said Charlie was wearing his pistol cross draw style. The holster is a left-hand holster.

nmjames