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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 10, 2016 18:19:00 GMT -5
Skeptics question the 1881 death of William Bonney, and believe William Henry Roberts, also known as Brushy Bill Roberts, was Billy the Kid.
These claims support Brushy Bill’s story. 1. There is no proof that William Bonney was killed 14 July 1881. 2. There is no record of William Henry Roberts because Brushy Bill was known by various aliases, and did not reveal his birth name until 1949. 3. Five individuals signed sworn affidavits that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. 4. Brushy Bill acquired his detailed knowledge of events in Lincoln County while participating in the Lincoln County war. 5. Bible records support Brushy Bill’s claimed parents, birth date and birthplace. 6. Brushy Bill’s memorabilia support his claim that he was a Deputy Marshall, member of the anti horse thief association, and was in Cuba with the Rough Riders. 7. A computerized recognition system revealed remarkable similarity between the facial structures of Billy the Kid and Brushy Bill Roberts. 8. Scars, and size, shape, and general appearance of Brushy Bill Roberts was said to be the same as Billy the Kid.
These facts do not support the story told by Brushy Bill Roberts. 1. A 15 July 1881 San Miguel County Coroner’s Jury Report concluded that the murder of William Bonney in Maxwell’s home was justifiable homicide. 2. Brushy Bill Roberts does not appear in any record under any of the aliases he claimed to have used. 3. Two old men, Bill and Sam Jones, whose brothers had known William Bonney, declined to sign affidavits. Three individuals who had never seen William Bonney signed sworn affidavits that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Another individual said Brushy Bill was too young to be Billy the Kid. 4. Information in “The Saga of Billy the Kid”, published in 1926, is strikingly similar to Brushy Bill’s version of the Lincoln County war. 5. Geneva Roberts Pittmon provided information from a family Bible that identified Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson as the parents of Oliver P. Roberts. 6. Brushy Bill Roberts collected memorabilia to support his story. 7. Photographic comparisons are subjective, not definitive. 8. Similar characteristics are a prerequisite, but not proof, of identity. 9. Brushy Bill named 7 relatives. No record has been found of 5 of them. Records show that the other 2 were relatives of Oliver P. Roberts. 10. Henry Oliver Roberts’ granddaughter identified her cousin Ollie in Tunstill’s photographs of Brushy Bill and Morrison. 11. Tunstill identified the picture of Henry Oliver Roberts’ wife, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, as the mother of Brushy Bill. 12. Brushy Bill said that Celsa Guterriez, sister of Saval Guterriez, was one of his sweethearts, and wanted to go to Mexico and get married, but she was the wife of Saval Guterriez with a daughter, age 3. 13. Brushy Bill was in Carlton, Texas, when his “step-aunt”, Kathrine Bonney (Cathrine McCarty), and William Antrim were married 1 March 1873 in Santa Fe. Henry McCarty and Joseph McCarty witnessed their mother’s marriage. 14. Census, WWI registration records, and information from the family Bible of Geneva Roberts Pittmon show that Brushy Bill Roberts, Ollie L. Roberts, and William Henry Roberts were different names used by Oliver Pleasant Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 10, 2016 19:40:07 GMT -5
I've read that Celsa had a son who was later interviewed and remembers The Night Billy took the knife to go cut the meat but I would like to see where the daughter thing comes from.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 11, 2016 15:17:08 GMT -5
McKinley412, 1880 census, Cabra Arenoso, Fort Sumner, San Miguel County, Territory of New Mexico, Enumeration District 37, Page 18, Line 47 Sabal Gutierres, age 30, sheepherder Line 48 Celsa Gutierres, age 24, wife, keeping house Line 49 Mauricia Gutierres, age 3, daughter
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 12, 2016 0:11:38 GMT -5
Texas Truth-Teller, I like that. I can't say I remember seeing the child listed when or if I looked at the record but I will look. I will take it under serious consideration. While noting that no Brushy supporters have ever tried to have the fourteen-year-old Brushy photo dated nor have Brushy's DNA compared to Oliver Pleasants mother's DNA.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 12, 2016 0:46:02 GMT -5
"1. A 15 July 1881 San Miguel County Coroner’s Jury Report concluded that the murder of William Bonney in Maxwell’s home was justifiable homicide." Because of the lies told to them by Garrett. None of the jurors were witnesses to the killing and I doubt any of them even saw the body of the man Garrett shot.
"2. Brushy Bill Roberts does not appear in any record under any of the aliases he claimed to have used." Aren't there records of "William H. Bonney", one of the aliases Brushy used? Which other alias would you expect to find and where?
"3. Two old men, Bill and Sam Jones, whose brothers had known William Bonney, declined to sign affidavits. Three individuals who had never seen William Bonney signed sworn affidavits that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Another individual said Brushy Bill was too young to be Billy the Kid." We are told they agreed Brushy was the Kid but refused to sign affidavits because they didn't want to get involved. "You" say the other 3 individuals never saw William Bonney. You can't prove that.
"4. Information in “The Saga of Billy the Kid”, published in 1926, is strikingly similar to Brushy Bill’s version of the Lincoln County war." Another thread on this message board has already pretty successfully debunked that theory.
"5. Geneva Roberts Pittmon provided information from a family Bible that identified Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson as the parents of Oliver P. Roberts." And why not. They really were the parents of Oliver P. Roberts, but that doesn't mean Brushy was Oliver P. Roberts now does it?
"6. Brushy Bill Roberts collected memorabilia to support his story." OK. Give us a specific example of something he "collected" and how he acquired it.
"7. Photographic comparisons are subjective, not definitive." Since when is definitive the opposite of subjective? If you're just trying to say photographic comparisons are not valid, I would suggest the FBI might differ with you.
"8. Similar characteristics are a prerequisite, but not proof, of identity." OK. But the lack of them might be proof otherwise. So are they not important to consider?
"9. Brushy Bill named 7 relatives. No record has been found of 5 of them. Records show that the other 2 were relatives of Oliver P. Roberts." OK. That one is certainly worth noting. We all know that the lack of a record of those individuals does not mean they didn't exist. But I'm not saying they did exist either. He might well have made up some of that.
"10. Henry Oliver Roberts’ granddaughter identified her cousin Ollie in Tunstill’s photographs of Brushy Bill and Morrison." Well, wouldn't that be because she believed that's who he was? That doesn't mean that "is" who he was.
"11. Tunstill identified the picture of Henry Oliver Roberts’ wife, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, as the mother of Brushy Bill." I suspect Brushy called her "mother" and Tunstill assumed he meant his "birth" mother. Who knows? Regardless, the error is on Tunstill, not Brushy.
"12. Brushy Bill said that Celsa Guterriez, sister of Saval Guterriez, was one of his sweethearts, and wanted to go to Mexico and get married, but she was the wife of Saval Guterriez with a daughter, age 3." Brushy may have had a thing for her, maybe she had one for him. Maybe he just fantasized that she and he were an item. Either way, it doesn't prove he wasn't Billy.
"13. Brushy Bill was in Carlton, Texas, when his “step-aunt”, Kathrine Bonney (Cathrine McCarty), and William Antrim were married 1 March 1873 in Santa Fe. Henry McCarty and Joseph McCarty witnessed their mother’s marriage." Oliver Pleasant Roberts was in Carlton, Texas. Brushy was at the wedding.
"14. Census, WWI registration records, and information from the family Bible of Geneva Roberts Pittmon show that Brushy Bill Roberts, Ollie L. Roberts, and William Henry Roberts were different names used by Oliver Pleasant Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson." That's what you believe. Not what you've proven.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 12, 2016 20:05:19 GMT -5
12. In Saga of Billy the Kid Paulita Maxwell makes it sound as if Celsa was Billy's sweetheart and that she was single, in my opinion. And after careful analysis it seems that Brushy was not getting his information from Saga of Billy the Kid which might lead one to believe that Celsa really was his sweetheart and she really was single.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 13, 2016 18:39:03 GMT -5
"13. Brushy Bill was in Carlton, Texas, when his “step-aunt”, Kathrine Bonney (Cathrine McCarty), and William Antrim were married 1 March 1873 in Santa Fe. Henry McCarty and Joseph McCarty witnessed their mother’s marriage." Oliver Pleasant Roberts was in Carlton, Texas. Brushy was at the wedding.
Wayne, I know you are convinced Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid, and believe Brushy’s story. Brushy said that he left Silver City in 1872 to look for his folks, and that he left his father’s household in Carlton in May 1874. That means Brushy Bill was in Carlton, while Henry McCarty was a witness of Cathrine’s marriage in 1873. Oliver Pleasant Roberts was NOT in Carlton in 1873. Oliver Pleasant Roberts was not born until 6 years later. Census and Bible records prove Oliver Pleasant Roberts was born August 1879.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 13, 2016 21:04:28 GMT -5
He's tellin' the truth. Also, just by chance I happen to run across that thing again where it talk about Celsa's son, his name was Cicado or something and he signed an affidavit about seeing Billy pick up the knife. I'm wondering why he wasn't in the 1880 census if that is the correct Jesus and Celsa. Was he living with his real father perhaps ? Maybe Celsa had to move in with her brother Jesus. Also I'd really like to read his affidavit instead of just reading about it. P.s. Brushy never said he wasn't at the wedding so I wouldn't count him out just yet. He just gave some dates that don't fit. Billy's stepfather William Antrim did the same thing when he gave the death date of his wife but we don't disbelieve that he was married to her when she died. Brushy at least did not miss that date up, so I'd say he was doing a little bit better than Catherine's husband.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 13, 2016 21:32:57 GMT -5
I believe Brushy was at the wedding because I believe Billy The Kid was at the wedding and I believe Brushy was Billy The Kid. His recollection of dates was flawed, yes. He may have even made up the part about looking for his folks in Carlton, etc. I suspect in the late 1940's Brushy was suffering from early stages of Dementia or just a runaway imagination but that doesn't mean he was not Billy The Kid.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 13, 2016 21:57:00 GMT -5
"11. Tunstill identified the picture of Henry Oliver Roberts’ wife, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, as the mother of Brushy Bill." I suspect Brushy called her "mother" and Tunstill assumed he meant his "birth" mother. Who knows? Regardless, the error is on Tunstill, not Brushy.
Wayne, you are confused. Morrison and Sonnichsen are the ones who included an image of Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts on page 58 of the 1955 (page 31 of the 2014 edition) of "Alias Billy the Kid". The image was identified by Brushy Bill/ William V. Morrison/ C. L. Sonnichsen as Mary Adeline Dunn, mother of William H. Roberts. Tunstill must have had a copy of "Alias Billy the Kid", for he referred to the specific page of "Alias Billy the Kid" where the identical picture was found. Tunstill only knew that Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts was the grandmother of Ollie's niece.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 13, 2016 22:17:23 GMT -5
"3. Two old men, Bill and Sam Jones, whose brothers had known William Bonney, declined to sign affidavits. Three individuals who had never seen William Bonney signed sworn affidavits that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Another individual said Brushy Bill was too young to be Billy the Kid." We are told they agreed Brushy was the Kid but refused to sign affidavits because they didn't want to get involved. "You" say the other 3 individuals never saw William Bonney. You can't prove that.
Wayne, Perhaps you overstate the case, or have not looked at "Alias Billy the Kid" recently.
Excerpt from Bill Jones response for requested affidavit: "Mr. Jones does not feel he can sign your affidavit that your man is Billy the Kid. He gave no proof at the time we met him. It seems to me that if he were Billy the Kid, HE WOULD NOT NEED AFFIDAVITS TO PROVE HIS CONTENTION."
Excerpt from Sam Jones: "Received your letter, and am sorry but feel that I can't sign the affidavit. I'm old and I just don't feel like being obligated so."
Neither of them said they agreed that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 13, 2016 22:26:40 GMT -5
"I believe Brushy was at the wedding because I believe Billy The Kid was at the wedding and I believe Brushy was Billy The Kid. His recollection of dates was flawed, yes. He may have even made up the part about looking for his folks in Carlton, etc. I suspect in the late 1940's Brushy was suffering from early stages of Dementia or just a runaway imagination but that doesn't mean he was not Billy The Kid."
Wayne, you are at least half right. Billy the Kid was at the wedding, but his name was Henry McCarty, not Brushy Bill. Brushy Bill did have a runaway imagination.
If Brushy Bill was suffering from the early stage of dementia, how do you explain his 31 December 1859 date of birth that he told Morrison versus the 31 December 1868 date of birth that appeared on his death certificate and on his initial grave marker? That 1868 date must have come from his wife. Shouldn't you ignore the 1859 birth year?
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 14, 2016 1:33:07 GMT -5
There are three women Brushy called mother according to his story. His birth mother his stepmother and his fake mother. His story was compiled from recordings, Brushy's notebooks and the investigators notes. Story was hard to follow. Sonnichsen and Morrison did the best they could to put it into some kind of chronological order. Even the way the man spoke was hard to understand.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 14, 2016 14:47:45 GMT -5
Dementia sufferers do not get "everything" wrong. They get some facts straight and some mixed up or even imagined. If Brushy was Billy The Kid, and I believe he was, then he "was" born in approximately 1859 and in 1873 he was in Silver City at his mother's wedding.
I will go back to it and look but I believe it was Brett Hall's book (who says he read Morrison's notes) who claimed the Jones brothers did indeed believe Brushy was Billy. True, Morrison's book doesn't state that, but it also does not say they thought he was a fraud.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 14, 2016 17:33:54 GMT -5
"I believe Brushy was at the wedding because I believe Billy The Kid was at the wedding and I believe Brushy was Billy The Kid."
So, Brushy was at the wedding. That means Brushy knew that Antrim's first name was William. Brushy knew that Joseph was Catherine's son. Brushy knew that Kathrine Bonney was Catherine McCarty when she married William Antrim. Why did Brushy Bill never mention Catherine's son, Joseph McCarty Antrim? Why did Brushy Bill never mention the first name of William H. Antrim? Why did Brushy Bill never refer to his "step-aunt" as Catherine McCarty rather than Kathrine Bonney? There is no credible record that Catherine McCarty was ever known as Kathrine Bonney. Brushy Bill usually provided a sequential records of events in his life. How is it possible that he would have omitted his "step-aunts" marriage from his story? Surely that would have made an impression on a 13 year old boy.
I think I know the answer to all these questions. None of this information about Catherine McCarty's marriage to Brushy Bill had been published, for it didn't became public knowledge until after 1950.
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