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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 15, 2016 18:29:10 GMT -5
Brushy Bill found his dead cousin Ollie in the Oklahoma Territory. He returned Ollie’s belongings to Ollie’s parents in Sulphur Springs, Hopkins County, Texas. Dudley Heath told his wife Martha that Brushy was not her brother. Ollie’s mother thought Brushy Bill was her long lost son. Ollie was born about 1867, and left home about 1884.
Census, death, and cemetery records prove Martha Heath was Martha Roberts Heath. Her father was Henry Oliver Roberts (1852-1924). His first wife, Caroline Dunn (1850-1875), was the mother of 2 children, Martha Vada Roberts Heath (1874-1947) and Samantha Bell Roberts (1872-1956). Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson (1856-1924) was the second wife of Henry Oliver Roberts. She was the mother of 8 children: Andrew Berry Roberts (1877-1923); Mary Cordelia Roberts (1878-1968); Oliver Pleasant Roberts (1879-1950); John W. Roberts (1881-1882); Lonnie V. Roberts (1884-1887); Thomas U. Roberts (1885-1958); Nora Roberts (1892-1893); and Joseph Irvin Roberts (1895-1950).
Cousin Ollie, a common nickname for Oliver, was identified as Oliver L. Roberts by the novelist Jameson.
Ollie should have been in the household of Henry Oliver Roberts in the 1880 census. He was not.
Brushy Bill said Ollie’s mother thought he was her long lost son. Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, born in 1856, could not possibly have been the mother of Ollie, born about 1867 when she was ll years old.
There is no evidence, credible or otherwise, indicating that cousin Ollie ever existed.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 18, 2016 12:24:57 GMT -5
Allen Redden Roberts born June 8, 1852 married Martha Ellen M Matt Taylor and they had 10 children, one of which was Olover Roberts, born 1879, apparently in Brownwood, Texas. There is no further info on Olover. No records other than his birth. No death date, nothing. There is also no info on Allen Redden Roberts’ parents or siblings. Is it possible he had a brother or a cousin named John Henry who had a son named William Henry? Is it possible the reason we’ve never found any census records of the family members Brushy described is because we were looking at the wrong Olover Roberts? This Olover had a sister named Mary C. born 1878, a brother named Berry born 1877, a sister named Martha, born 1875, and a sister named Samantha, born 1874 who married a "William Henry" Lawson, born 1865. I'm not saying the two families are one and the same. I'm saying there are lots of names common between the two families and it may be more than coincidence. This Olover and the one who is suspected of being the same person as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, both had their names spelled with two O's. This alone indicates to me that the spelling of Henry Oliver's son with two O's may not have been an error. Did Henry Oliver Roberts have "two" sons named Olover and Oliver? Were the two Olover's, the one from VanZandt and the one from Brownwood, one and the same? The siblings of this Olover from Brownwood have considerable info about them on ancestry but Olover does not.
It's probably all coincidence. I suspect it is. But, it is interesting, all the similar family names. Does that indicate maybe a common ancestry?
Brushy never said the Oliver whose identity he assumed was his "first" cousin. He just said he was his cousin. They could have been "1st cousins once removed" or even twice removed. I'm saying, if it is possible Allen Redden was a brother or a cousin of Henry Oliver and there is no record of that, then it is also possible they had another brother or cousin named John Henry, whose existence was missed by the census takers.
Speaking of the census, why did Brushy report his birthplace as Taylor County, TX to the 1940 census?
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Post by nmjames on Oct 18, 2016 20:18:07 GMT -5
Wayne,
Where did you find the name Olover with Allen Redden Roberts? I find a female name: Armis on the 1880 census born abt. 1879. She died in 1958 and is in the Bear Creek Cemetery, Burnet Co. TX. Her name is Huggins. On the 1880 census her father is Allen Roberts and mother Marthy Roberts.
nmjames
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 18, 2016 21:20:37 GMT -5
In a member's tree. I'm searching for verification that it was not just an error on the part of the ancestry.com member.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 18, 2016 21:29:39 GMT -5
Wayne,
I also found John Wesley Roberts. Birth 1876, died 1962 Bear Creek Cemetery, Burnet Co. Texas. He is the brother of Elizabeth and Armis. On the 1880 census, Elizabeth is 5, John 3, and Armis 1(I think Armis is the wrong spelling).
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 19, 2016 0:35:56 GMT -5
According to the family tree I was looking at, Allen and Martha had two children in 1878 and two in 1879. That would be a bit difficult to achieve, so I suspect the owner of that family tree incorrectly added Olover to their tree due to the similarity of several siblings names born in similar years and in similar order. I'm messaging the owner of that board to inquire how Olover was added to the tree. We'll see.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 19, 2016 14:58:33 GMT -5
"Speaking of the census, why did Brushy report his birthplace as Taylor County, TX to the 1940 census?"
Wayne, I need to clean my rose colored glasses. All I can see in the 1940 census of Gregg County, Texas, column 15, place of birth, is one word, 'Texas'.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 19, 2016 15:43:44 GMT -5
Cousin Ollie wasn't a cousin, wuz he?
"They could have been "1st cousins once removed" or even twice removed."
Henry Oliver Roberts (12 May 1852 - 21 March 1924)
Joseph Roberts (1793 - 1858), father of Henry Oliver Roberts was born in Virginia
SONS OF JOSEPH ROBERTS
Virgil Alexander Roberts (25 March 1847 - 1 March 1928)
Henry Oliver Roberts (12 May 1852 - 21 March 1924)
Andrew Berry Roberts (17 October 1854 - 24 August 1910)
SONS OF VIRGIL ALEXANDER ROBERTS (Brushy Bill’s 1st cousins)
Joseph Alexander Roberts (22 September 1869 - 23 October1947)
Thomas Branch Roberts (5 December 1886 - 7 July 1942)
Marshall Walker Roberts (22 May 1896 - 3 December 1944)
SONS OF ANDREW BERRY ROBERTS (Brushy Bill’s 1st cousins)
Oran Roscoe Roberts (22 March 1884 - 29 July 1922)
Andrew Berry Roberts (17 January 1888 - 23 February 1956)
James Carlos Roberts (18 January 1890 - 29 August 1979)
William Garnett Roberts (8 November 1893 - 15 April 1975)
No sign of cousin Ollie, born ca. 1868.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 19, 2016 15:46:12 GMT -5
Maybe I'm having "memory issues" in "my" old age, (btw I'm 66), but I could have sworn I saw that on a 1940 census, possibly not the Federal census. You are right it is not on the Federal census. It is in fact reported on his death certificate as Taylor County, TX. If I see it again anywhere else I will specify where.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 19, 2016 15:54:32 GMT -5
In response to the census records regarding 1st cousins, I am well aware there is nothing there on cousin Ollie. That's why I made the point about 1st cousins once removed or twice removed. There are also such things as 2nd cousins, 3rd cousins, and those can be once or twice removed. My point is that just because their are no 1st cousins named Ollie showing in the census doesn't mean there was no "cousin" Ollie.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 19, 2016 18:32:41 GMT -5
"My point is that just because their are no 1st cousins named Ollie showing in the census doesn't mean there was no "cousin" Ollie."
And my point is:
Cuzn Ollie, born about 1867, presumably was the son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts. That is implied by the fact that when Brushy Bill returned Cuzn Ollie’s belonging’s to his parents, they let him believe he was the runaway Ollie. Ollie’s mother (Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts) took Brushy Bill to her bosom as a long lost son (p. 99 of Alias Billy the Kid). That yarn is beyond belief. Sarah Elizabeth was only 11 years old when Cuzn Ollie was born.
The entire Brushy Bill fable that he was Billy the Kid abounds in "doesn't mean", "could have been", "just because", "not everyone was counted in the census", "memory was not accurate at his age", etc. Where is some credible evidence supporting Brushy Bill's story? There is proof that affidavits of DeWitt Travis, Robert E. Lee, and Martile Able are not credible.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 19, 2016 23:36:47 GMT -5
I know, I know. Taken at face value, Brushy's story seems to indicate he was a 1st cousin to the real Oliver Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts. But it could be that the alleged William Henry Roberts (Brushy) was a 2nd or even 3rd cousin to Oliver Pleasant Roberts. It's a stretch because the more distance the relationship, the more difficult to explain why Brushy would know of or recognize his distant cousin. I'm just trying to think outside the box a little. Humor me.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 20, 2016 23:40:34 GMT -5
Wayne, you are definitely outside the box.
You are correct. Cousin most often refers to 1st cousins, but not always. There are 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. cousins. Then there are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. cousins X times removed, X denoting the difference in generations back to a common ancestor.
A recap: From "Alias Billy the Kid", Dudley Heath was married to Billy's cousin, Martha. Henry Oliver Roberts is not found in "Alias Billy the Kid". It was William Tunstill who identified Henry Oliver Roberts as the father of Martha Roberts Heath. That part of his research was correct.
Jameson appears to have assumed that the name of cousin Ollie was Oliver L. Roberts. That is a logical assumption since Ollie is a common nickname for Oliver, and Brushy Bill's death certificate said his name was Ollie L. Roberts. The death certificate also identifies Taylor County, Texas as his place of birth. There is no proof that he was born 31 December 1859, or born in Taylor County. If his real name was William Henry Roberts, why wasn't that name on the death certificate? Why did Brushy Bill to marry Mollie Brown as Oliver Roberts rather than William Henry Roberts? Literature prior to 1950 identified Billy the Kid as William Bonney or William Antrim.
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