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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 11, 2015 17:14:10 GMT -5
Where was Brushy Bill born? Sebastian County, Arkansas, or Taylor County, Texas?
Records show that Oliver Pleasant Roberts was born in Sebastian County, Arkansas, 26 August 1879, to Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, and also show that he lived in Hopkins County and Van Zandt County, Texas, and Little River County, Arkansas, and Hamilton County, Texas, before his 1950 death in Hico, Texas.
Brushy Bill told William V. Morrison that he was born in Buffalo Gap, Taylor County, Texas, 31 December 1859. Brushy Bill said his father was "Wild Henry" Roberts and his mother was Mary Adeline Dunn.
In 1858 the Texas legislature established Taylor County, named for Alamo defenders Edward, James, and George Taylor, from lands formerly assigned to Bexar and Travis counties. Taylor County was attached to Travis and Bexar counties for judicial and administrative purposes until 1873, when these responsibilities were assigned to Eastland County. Partly due to the presence of Indians, the area remained largely unsettled. The Penateka band of Comanche indians maintained their independence until the 1870s, when, after much bloodshed, they were defeated by the United States Army. The earliest group of European settlers in Taylor County were buffalo hunters and bone gatherers, who arrived during the 1870s. Taylor County was not organized until 1878, and there is no census record of Taylor County for 1860 or 1870.
In 1857, the first settlers and their families moved to Brown County which was on the frontier. Taylor County is the second county west of Brown County. As late as 1869, indians were still raiding the homesteads of Brown County pioneers.
Was Brushy Bill born in Buffalo Gap, Taylor County, Texas? Only if you are a diehard Brushy Bill believer.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 11, 2015 21:47:00 GMT -5
I'm no expert on the history of Taylor County but others have stated evidence in the past that there were some settlers in the area as of the late 1850's which is when Brushy said his parents moved there. But even if that is not true, it doesn't mean Brushy was not BTK. In fact, if he left the area where he was born as young as 2 or 3 years old, he wouldn't have personal memories of it anyway. He would have to be stating what he was told by his Aunt Catherine or his father when he stayed with him for a time. Maybe they were the liars. Either way it don't prove much.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 12, 2015 15:09:08 GMT -5
"Either way it don't prove much."
A concise description of Brushy Bill's stories recorded by William V. Morrison.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 12, 2015 17:40:35 GMT -5
Two possibilities:
1. Brushy was not born in Buffalo Gap
2. Brushy was born in Buffalo Gap
Neither possibility proves he was or was not BTK. Therefore I don't much care whether he was born there or not.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 17:58:44 GMT -5
records.ancestry.com/william_henry_roberts_records.ashx?pid=84410581And you also have to figure, Brushy told the story of how he was in the Rough Riders. After he died, among his assets was a medal from that particular group of soldiers. Still, even at that, people figured he was lying about being in with them. That is, until you see a listing: www.spanamwar.com/rrroster.htm#RAnd in company 'L' there is a William J. Roberts, and some other records show the 'J' is incorrect, that it is 'H'. Ancestry shows that William H. Roberts was not only in the Rough Riders but the Buffalo Soldiers. As a 'Buffalo' he was in company 'D' in the Tenth Calvary, roll number 99. The interesting part is it lists his father as being a James H. Roberts (born Kentucky 1832), which lines up with Brushy's account that he was born in Buffalo Gap, Texas and his father was from Kentucky. Now, granted, sometimes people create faked profiles on Ancestry and other sites, I concede this. But I think a simple cross-examination of books with listings, will show that this all is true. The one argument I will make that Brushy Bill WAS NOT Ollie L, Ollie N, Ollie P (etc) is a certain matter of census records and known signatures on file. In the census records, there seems to be a jump in age from ten to twenty years. And what hand writing samples we have, we see an extreme difference in short-hand. I'm no expert in such matters, but one thing I do know, is while people's hand writing does change (for a number of factors: age, stress, etc) but there is ALWAYS consistency in the writing. With Brushy and Ollie, its night and day.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 27, 2015 11:15:29 GMT -5
Rufus, You are correct. Information found on the internet is suspect, no more that a clue, until verified from other sources.
Photographic comparisons are subjective, and not proof. Handwriting analysis is subjective, and not proof.
Brushy Bill claimed he was Billy the Kid. That is a theory, not a fact, and is not supported by any credible record or document.
Problems with Brushy Bill's story: No proof that Billy the Kid was alive after 1881. No record or proof that Billy Barlow actually existed. No record or proof that his father, "Wild Henry" Roberts actually existed. No record or proof that his mother, Mary Adeline Dunn actually existed. No record, evidence, or proof that Mary Adeline Dunn and Catherine McCarty were half-sisters. No record, evidence, or proof that Brushy Bill had a cousin named Ollie Roberts. No proof that Brushy Bill was born in Buffalo Gap, Taylor County, Texas, 31 December 1859. No record or proof that Oliver Pleasant Roberts, son of Henry Oliver and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, disappeared from the face of the earth after 1900. No proof that Brushy Bill assumed the identity of Oliver P. Roberts. Sara Ferguson, born 24 February 1856, wife of Henry Oliver Roberts, was the mother of Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 August 1879, and not the step-mother of Brushy Bill, who claimed he was born 31 December 1859. No evidence or proof that Brushy Bill was a U S Marshall in Oklahoma. No evidence or proof that Brushy Bill was a Pinkerton agent. No evidence or proof that Brushy Bill was in Cuba with the Rough Riders. No evidence or proof that Brushy Bill was a Texas Ranger. No evidence or proof that Brushy Bill owned ranches in Mexico.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 17:38:23 GMT -5
I'll try my best to try and 'combat' the statements you have given...
#1- Following the (alleged) death of The Kid, there were 26 newspaper accounts claiming he was still alive. This was almost immediately after Pat Garrett (allegedly) killed him. Second, in 1882 and 1883 San Miguel County issued arrest warrants for The Kid. Why? Unless there was reason to believe he was indeed among the living. Third, a couple of the Regulators and Jesse Evans Gang, especially Yginio Salazar claimed that they either met The Kid or received letters from him AFTER his alleged death. Fourthly, it must be noted that Elizabeth Garrett (Pat's daughter) in 1983 said that her father didn't kill The Kid.
#2- As for the man "Billy Barlow", even Brushy said he didn't believe it to be the man's actual name. We'll never know the answer to that question. It's easier to say that Brushy made it all up, but I think it is just as easy to believe in those times there were a hell of a lot of people living with aliases. Hell, the "real" Kid himself went under three in his own lifetime: Henry McCarty, Henry Antrim, William H. Bonney. If we believe Brushy, it's four: William H. Roberts.
#3- Being an avid researcher of genealogy, I have found in my own family lineage alot of people who seemingly came from nowhere. As if they fell out of the sky. Especially on my mother's side. I think most families, when they take the time to look up old relatives, tend to find people who don't seem to match up and have no state of birth, etc. Even military records can be vague. Hell, my 5th great-grandfather in the Civil War (John H. Defibaugh) has nowhere listed who his parents were on his military death record. By proxy, then, we haven't ever connected the dots from that point back. It isnt even listed on his marriage record who his parents were or where they came from. So I can believe a few people could go unaccounted for, which answers questions 3-5.
#4- As for the ties between Mrs. McCarty and Mrs. Dunn, that answer lies (more or less) with whether you believe the "official" history of Billy The Kid that garrett and others insisted was the truth, that Billy came from New York. Most researchers in his time, and most historians now, will discredit the New York narrative. That being said, we have to work from bottom all over again. I do know in my own family lineage (in those times) it was quite common for people to remarry, and often times two-three in a lifetime. Considering historians are still figuring out The Kid's life, I think its fair to say, historians and researchers need to re-examine Mrs. McCarty as well.
#5- According to the Roberts family (outside of Geneva Pittmon) everyone said that Brushy and Ollie were two different people. When one looks at the census records, in 1900 it lists Ollie's parents as being from Arkansas. In the following census of 1910 it says they were from Kentucky. The census after that goes back to saying they were from Arkansas. That, in and of itself, gives 'credit' to the notion/idea that somewhere between 1900 and 1910 Roberts assumed his cousins identity. Some people will say Roberts did this on purpose, myself I believe it was a Freudian-Slip. Only til afterwards, did he realize his mistake, and from then on wrote down 'Arkansas'. But because he wrote down Texas (as early as 1910) it lends credability to Roberts testimony that he was born in Texas to parents from kentucky. That answers questions 6-10.
#6- As for the remaining questions "No proof of being a US Marshal", "No proof of being a Pinkerton Agent", "No proof of being a Texas Ranger", etc. all I can say is that as time goes on and old newspapers, documents, etc. become accessible we find that alot of the stories Roberts told about his life were true. He knew there was a race won by a horse named Cyclone and that Waggoner bet $25,000 on the horse. That checked out to be true. He said when he enlisted, they went through Mobile, Alabama. Come to find out there was indeed a military station in Mobile where some of the soldiers went to go to Cuba. Brushy himself had in his posession a medal that was only given to people involved in the Rough Riders. He claimed in the 1880's-1900's that he was the Texas Kid, and come to find out there was a couple of Texas Kid's. It's interesting also that a Pinkerton Agent, Henry H. Anthony recognized Brushy and as The Kid--- so could it be that Anthony may of worked with Brushy when he was with the Pinkerton's? Brushy also claimed that he worked with Buffalo and Pawnee Bill, and well-known and noted employee Robert E. Lee confirmed that story--- and more so, saying that Brushy got the job because one of the Bill's knew Brushy's father (from Kentucky) personally. No, none of these things prove he was The Kid, but it does show that his stories were CONSISTENT in their accuracy, though its taken some 60 years after his death to show them to be so.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 18:00:08 GMT -5
I might also add that for decades (until recently) that people said Brushy was lying about there being an "Anti-Horse Thief" chapter in his area (where he claimed to of lived at the time) in 1885-1889. Come to find out, indeed, there was such a chapter in his area during those years. How would a non-literary man (who didn't read constantly) know about an association being around when (if Brushy was Ollie) he would of only been ten years old in 1889? Again... it gives credability to Roberts life narrative that he told William V. Morrison, because #1- Nobody until recently knew such an organisation existed, #2- How would a mere child of low learning, degree, etc. know so much about it?
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 18:42:05 GMT -5
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 28, 2015 15:30:57 GMT -5
"#5- According to the Roberts family (outside of Geneva Pittmon) everyone said that Brushy and Ollie were two different people." Who is everyone? Geneva Roberts Pittmon, a niece of Oliver P. Roberts, said that Brushy Bill was Oliver P. Roberts Roy Haws, a relative of Brushy Bill, in his book, stated that Brushy Bill was Oliver Pleasant Robert. Here is an excerpt from Roy's book, quoting a 2014 e-mail from Paul Emerson, a grandson of Martha Vada Roberts. "I don't remember for sure just how old I was when Brushy came to see grandmother. I could have been a little older than 16 and we all knew he claimed to be Billy the Kid. Grandmother was glad to see him and he was nice He was a small man (if I remember correctly), not too tall and he wore his cowboy clothes, boots, etc, I don't recall him coming over to our house, but it's possible he did. But I do remember grandmother saying he was not Billy the Kid. I think Eulaine and my boys really wanted him to be whether he was or not."
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 16:27:18 GMT -5
Well what's interesting on THAT.... is alot of anti-Brushy supporters always pointed out J. Frank Dalton as 'proof' of Brushy being a fraud, because they maintained for DECADES that he only claimed to be The Kid AFTER Dalton was proved to not be Jesse James. The interesting part of that quote you made is the following:
In bold. That means the "Kid" story Brushy gave goes back a HELL of a lot farther back than anyone could of ever realized. Which (at the very least) destroys the "theory" that Brushy only became The Kid after Dalton proved not to be the real deal. By the way, WASNT the old "grandmother" mentioned in this the same woman Brushy said was Ollie's mom? The same woman Brushy said was an old lady when he assumed her son's identity, because him and his cousin Ollie looked very much alike? AND... the last sentence is telling... "WHETHER HE WAS OR NOT", which seems to indicate that even this woman wasn't particuarly sure whether he was or wasn't The Kid.
Doesn't it stand to some reason, that alot of the family said Brushy and Ollie were two different people, and could it be that the old woman was fooled considering her age? Mind you the "real" Ollie was born in the 1860's, and according to Brushy he assumed Ollie's identity around 1910. By that time, that man's mother would of had to of been somewhere between 70-80 years old, if she had Ollie in her 20's or 30's. How hard would it of been to pass yourself off as someone else, when you are a dead ringer for your cousin, and the only person you had to fool was ONE elderly old woman, because her husband was in on the con.
And no offense.... but this is second, and third hand information from relatives who "recalled" conversations from adults, when they were children practically. Mind you, Brushy Bill has been dead for SIXTY-FIVE YEARS. These people at best, would be in their 50's. So you have to somewhat question their own credability as "reliable witnesses" when they seldom ever met Brushy, etc.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 16:40:13 GMT -5
And one more thing to ask.... "Why would a man claim to be Billy The Kid, when his "mother" was alive and well and could destroy his credability off the bat by telling everyone he wasn't?".... and why was there so much doubt, or even raise the question of "What if?"... if that was indeed the case? Anyone could of tracked down sons, daughters, etc. of the woman after Brushy died and of said from the start "Our brother was lying," and yet no one brought up anything at all until Geneva Pittmon? Come on now.
For me, personally, it sounds more like family members were under scrutiny, wasn't able to answer the question definitely, couldn't stand up to the public ridicule as to whether this man was or wasnt, and some decided to just say he was a faker just so people would get off their backs.
Problem with that, its backfired. Because there is a greater interest in Roberts than maybe at any point in his life. He was featured on "Legends and Lies" and probably being The Kid, there's been new books made in recent years, etc. so in my view, what was an attempt to "save the family face" turned out to be a disaster. And in reality, it wasn't Geneva Pittmon or anyone else in the family who started the Ollie Roberts story, but William A. Tunstill who believed him to be The Kid.
In fact, no one is sure how many Ollie's there even was. Oliver L, Oliver Pleasant, Brushy, etc. So again we're stuck in a quandry over who was who, etc. BUT THE GREATEST EVIDENCE for Roberts story is the 1910 census where he lists his parents as being from Kentucky--- when the real Oliver Roberts' parents were from Arkansas. Why would a man (who for many years) ALWAYS listed his parents as being from Arkansas suddenly write Kentucky, and then for the rest of his life go back to writing down Arkansas?
But I am sure there will be those who say Brushy concocted the whole story even back then and that is why he did it, but I think that in and of itself is a HUGE leap of faith to take--- because that would mean for 50+ years Brushy Bill was creating the legend, and got everyone involved to swear he was The Kid, etc.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 28, 2015 17:47:44 GMT -5
"When one looks at the census records, in 1900 it lists Ollie's parents as being from Arkansas. In the following census of 1910 it says they were from Kentucky. The census after that goes back to saying they were from Arkansas. That, in and of itself, gives 'credit' to the notion/idea that somewhere between 1900 and 1910 Roberts assumed his cousins identity."
I agree the birthplace of the parents of Oliver P. Roberts in 1910 census appears on the census sheet as Kentucky. That does not mean they were born in Kentucky. Surely as an experienced genealogist, you realize census records are not notarized documents. The most common mistakes are misspelled names. Ages are approximate. Place of birth is often wrong. Accurate information in census records depends upon the knowledge of the respondent, the correct recording of the information by the enumerator during the visitation, and transcription of that information onto the census sheet.
Brushy Bill could not have assumed his cousin's identity. There is no record of a cousin named Ollie N. Roberts.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 28, 2015 17:52:18 GMT -5
"And no offense.... but this is second, and third hand information from relatives who "recalled" conversations from adults, when they were children practically. Mind you, Brushy Bill has been dead for SIXTY-FIVE YEARS. These people at best, would be in their 50's. So you have to somewhat question their own credability as "reliable witnesses" when they seldom ever met Brushy, etc. "
The myth that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid is based solely on stories spun by Brushy Bill during the Morrison interviews.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 28, 2015 18:00:59 GMT -5
"But I am sure there will be those who say Brushy concocted the whole story even back then and that is why he did it, but I think that in and of itself is a HUGE leap of faith to take--- because that would mean for 50+ years Brushy Bill was creating the legend, and got everyone involved to swear he was The Kid, etc. "
Morrison is the one who solicited affidavitsj, not Brushy Bill. Take a good look at the affidavit sworn to and signed by DeWitt Travis, who said he had known Brushy Bill for most of his life. Since Dewitt was born in 1890, and they both resided in Van Zandt County, he probably had known Brushy Bill most of his life. Problem is, DeWitt had no idea what Billy the Kid looked like. Billy the Kid was killed in 1881 long before DeWitt was born. Brushy Bill said he was Billy the Kid, and DeWitt didn't know the difference between Oliver Pleasant Roberts and William Henry "Billy the Kid" McCarty.
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