The lost interviews of Brushy.

[chivato1011]

I have read the lost interview book over and over. I still can't see how anyone could give so many details and not be there in person. I was told on this board before that Brushy got his information from J Dalton and others in Oklahoma. I have read many book on Billy the kid. I don't think I could give an interview and pass my self off as the kid. One example Brushy mentioned a black fiddle player named George Washington in Lincoln. I found George Washington was lynched in Lincoln in 1882. Minor details like this I don't see how could be told to brushy by Dalton or anyone else. Too much information for one man to know and not be there.

[Wayne Land]

Exactly! And he was not an avid reader. In my opinion there's only one way Brushy could have been faking it and that is if Morrison's interviews with him were faked. At least two individuals claim to have listened to those tapes. I don't believe they were both liars. Also, if Morrison had been faking anything he would have stuck more closely to the accepted history. But he didn't. In fact, Brushy made comments that were thought to be wrong at the time that have since been proven correct.

[chivato1011]

I believe he was there in person. If he was not Billy? Who was he? Almost everyone involved in the war was mentioned at some point, even minor role players. Brushy had the scars to match what he knew and told. If he was not the kid, why didn't somebody from Lincoln identify him as somebody else because he had to be there during the war.

[Just-thinking]

I agree that Miller is clearly not Billy the kid, but I have also found too many items that
also tell me that Brushy Bill Roberts is not either.
The items that bother me, are the friend of Billy the kid purchased him a tombstone.
Why, if he really wasn't buried there, why would they put together enough money
to purchase one.
The one item that really stands out, is the eyes, Billy had very pretty blue eyes.
Roberts had gray eyes, not the sky blue that Billy was suppose to have.
Roberts and Billy's eyebrows don't match, based on the pictures I have tried to compare.
Relatives of Roberts gave a birth date to reporters, that that date could not have been
Billy the Kids.

There are also Deluvina Maxwell, who went hysterical after seeing Billy's body.
Why would she be beating on Garrett's chest, if it was not Billy?

Why did Lucien Maxwell go out to Billy's grave for years after his death?

I also remember reading that Frank Coe heard that Billy was really alive.
For years afterwards he searched, but was never able to find him.
In one of his last interviews, he seemed convinced that he had really died.

The interview of Jesus Silva was another one that was heart felt, and believable.

Vicente Otero, he was also very convincing that he had really buried Billy.

One other thing that comes to mind is, why would they bury someone else next to
Billy's two close friends, actually in between them as I remember?

I remember being in a Bar down in Roswell, NM and having someone tell me that
the guy at the other end of the bar could be my brother. I stopped down
to see the guy, and sure enough, he did look a heck of a lot like me ....
(but it wasn't me for sure). Same with Roberts, he may be one of the many
that looked like the kid, but too many facts point in a different direction.

I have always found Garrett and his Deputies stories, just too flawed to believe.
My only question is, who was Roberts, as he clearly did some fighting?

There will always be questions, and new stories, as I heard a lot of them
back when I was a kid in New Mexico.

[Wayne Land]

You've made a lot of points here to address in one reply so I'm going to be brief in replying to each one in the order you put them.

There is no reason to assume that the friends of Billy who purchased a tombstone "knew" that the body in that grave was not Billy's.
As far as I know, there are no color photos of Billy The Kid or of Brushy Bill so the exact color of the eyes is subject to fallible descriptions.
I've never seen Billy's eyes described as "sky" blue, but Severo Gallegos saw Billy's eyes and Brushy's eyes. He said the eyes were the same and that no one else had eyes like those.
My efforts to compare photos show the eyebrows are very, very similar, enough so they could be the same person.
The birth date on Brushy's death certificate and original tombstone was the birthdate of the man he had pretended to be for many years, Oliver L. Roberts.
He did not claim that was Billy's birthdate. He did say his, Billy's, real birthdate was 1859.
Deluvina Maxwell and Lucien Maxwell believed Billy had been killed. Only a few people knew the truth.
We don't really know what Frank Coe believed or didn't believe but either way, it has little bearing on finding the truth.
Vincent Otero buried a coffin that was alleged to contain Billy's body. I doubt he ever saw the body itself.
They buried the coffin next to Billy's friends because they believed the coffin held the body of Billy. It did not.
Combine the physical similarities Brushy shared with Billy with the long list of things he knew that an impostor would not have known.


Thanks for posting. I just don't think you're considering all the facts.

[nmjames]

Wayne,

I don't have time to answer all you posted above but I feel you are wrong.

Show me where Deluvina, Lucien or Vincent or for that matter anyone that was there that night said they did not see Billy. Deluvina helped dress Bill and someone had to put him in the box. They held a wake also.

Also on one of your earlier post you talked about the gun Billy had on him the night he was killed. I know what happen to it up to a certain point and may have seen the gun when I was about 9 or 10. You can also see where Deluvin picked the gun up and placed it on a bureau. (page 128) I buried Billy.

Sorry, I know this is quick but I am somewhat busy.

[Wayne Land]

nmjames,

Show me where Deluvina, Lucien or Vincent or for that matter anyone that was there that night other than Pat Garrett, the deputies, Pete Maxwell, and Jesus Silva actually, specifically said they saw the body itself. I can make that request just the same as you can make yours and the fact is we don't know specifically what they saw.

Yes, there was the report that a wake was held, but there was also a report that the body stayed in Maxwell's home the entire night and was buried early the next day. Isn't it possible that the body was kept in the house for the specific purpose of keeping others from seeing it? And isn't it possible the coffin was prepared and brought into Maxwell's home with the body in question being placed inside by Garrett and his deputies? Again, we don't know. We don't know because so many of the statements made afterwards conflicted with each other that we just can't be sure who was being truthful about the events and the handling of the body.

I don't know if I believe Deluvina even went into the room that night. In one interview she said she did and in another she said she didn't. Again, because she contradicted her own statements, we can not assume she ever told the whole truth.

Nice to hear from you again.

[Just-thinking]

Hi Wayne,

Thank you very much for the reply, as it has been a long time
since I did any reading on Mr. William Bonney.
Most of what I stated is from old books my Dad use to have, and may well be at my
Sister's house now. Just too old to go find out nowdays.

So you could well be right, I may not have all the facts, but I'm here to learn them.
(If I am still able to do so, and I'm not saying that I am).

If I remember correctly, didn't Pat Garrett say that the old Indian woman Deluvina
came out weeping after her and Jesus Silva went into the room to see the dead man.
Jesus said, as I remember, he was the one to turn over the body. If this is true,
and Maxwell was in the room at the time of the shooting, wouldn't have
Maxwell stopped them from buying a tombstone for the wrong person?
Granted the room was dark, but he was there as Pat and the rest walked back in the
room.

After I was on this site, I did some reading on Brushy Bill, and one site stated that
he had Gray Eyes. I knew from several different books, they all agreed that
William Bonney's eyes were blue. One book called them almost Sky blue, so
I just added that addition when trying to think off the top of my head.
Plus I remember reading a statement by Ms Maxwell on the color of Billy's eyes.
I tend to believe her, since she certainly seemed to like Mr. Bonney.

The eyebrows are a key for me, as far as Brushy goes. Bonney can be an Irish
surname, and in William's case it most certainly is. Bonney is from Tipperary,
and the family there has certain trades, and the eyebrows all have a certain body
to them. William Bonney, in his picture, as far as I can tell, has the eyebrows that
I would expect from a Bonney from Tipperary. Brushy Bill does not, and this was
a major concern for me, when I looked at his picture. I am of Irish descent, and
many Irish family have certain gene marks that I look for to see what Sept they are
from. Many may laugh at this, but I have been able to tell what county and sometime
what Sept (family) they are from, just by their looks.
So, I guess this isn't much proof one way or the other, but I did want to mention it.

On the Birth date of Brushy, I have no evidence one way of the other, so I guess
I will not go after this one, at all.

As you stated, “Deluvina Maxwell and Lucien Maxwell believed that Billy had been killed”.
Since they were there, and Lucien backed up the story, she win's, I believe it.
What bothers me greatly, is that, (based on a fading memory) Pete Maxwell never
said anything about the shooting. Even years later, when people tried to interview him,
he was quiet (did he ever say anything?). Why was Pete so hush hush on the matter,
even years later, what did he fear?

One point I have to disagree is on Frank Coe, I think what he has to say is relevant.
He searched out Billy for a number of years afterward, riding out to sightings of
Billy. In the end, he seemed to finally believe, that if Billy was alive, he would have
contacted him in some manner, but that was not the case. I think that Billy knew that
Frank would not betray him, no matter what. Which I gotta say, make me believe
that most likely Billy really was killed.

The box is another concern, instead of just putting the body in a bag, they took the
time to build a Wooden coffin for the dead man. If it wasn't Billy, why didn't they just
wrap the body in few blankets, tie it up, and dump it in a hole. These people took the
time to give him a proper burial, and a Wake. If he was laying there for all to see,
in m eyes, that is another issue, that does bother me.

One nagging question that I always had is what was Garrett and his Deputies hiding, why
didn't their stories match. Something is being hidden, you can tell by the accounts,
in my opinion. I expect accounts of a killing to vary, but not the way these did.

On the last item, as far as what Brushy knew, I gotta find time to wake up
and do some reading. As I know little about the gent, but am going to search the
web for anything that I can, and will be back with more conversation.

All the best,
Joe.

[nmjames]

Thanks Wayne, I have been busy over the last several months.

Where do you want me to start on the different ones that saw Billy or William Bonney that night. Let's start with Pete Maxwell. He made a statement which you can find on the Coroner's report. Then Jesus Silva, besides in a number of books, then to Jack Hull in 1937 along with Deluvina Maxwell. Let's also go with the names on the Coroner's Jury. (I won't type them as you can find it.) There are many more.

You are correct that some say that Billy's body stayed in the Maxwell room that night and others said it was taken to the carpenters shop but many people in Fort Sumner saw the body that night and the next day. Can you show me where any of these people said that the only ones that saw the body was Pat Garrett and Pete Maxwell and keep them from seeing the body?

By the way, you do know that Morrison interviewed Edith's sister in Ruidoso in 1950. (Page 69 - Morrison's book).

[Wayne Land]

The Coroner's Jury may well have not seen the body itself. I believe Garrett wrote the Coroner's report. And I've read that some of the individuals who were on that Jury were not even in Fort Sumner at the time.

I believe Garrett, Poe, McKinney, Maxwell, Silva and possible Deluvina all saw the body. Can you give me any direct quotes of any others that said they saw the actual body and identified it as Billy The Kid? Comments like "I was there the night Billy was shot" or "I was at his burial" or "I was there when bla, bla, bla ......." don't prove anything to me. Who specifically saw the body, unwrapped, in an open coffin or laying on a table, etc. where they could have known for certain who they were looking at and had this person ever met Billy before?

[nmjames]

I don't agree with you. The Coroner's Jury did see the body of Billy. I think all of them knew him. Garrett didn't write the Coroner's report, Milnor Rudulph did. I think he is the one that Anaya said didn't live in the area and that has been proven to be wrong. I think you can find it in Keleher's Book. If I remember right,
Milnor wrote to his wife from Sunnyside, N.M. July 28, 1881.I haven't cheked into this yet but I think Milnor wrote something on the subject.

There have been many researchers and several of the people there that night talked to them. You can find information all over this area. Midland, TX. Santa Fe, Silver City, Roswell, Carlsbad, Artesia. Lubbock and on and on.

They laid Billy's body out and placed candles around him. I have well over 100 books and just about everyone states that the town's people saw Billy.

The Coroner's Report is in Santa Fe. I purchased a copy a few years back. It was lost for awhile but I think in 1947, they found it. You can also look up NM Supreme Court judge Frank W. Parker and James F. Hinkle. in 1931 he got a copy of it from Hinkle. It is said Hinkle had the one in Spanish and the one in English. Garrett wrote out what happen that night and then on July 15, 1881 he wrote a letter to Gov. Wallace. I think it's still in Santa Fe. As we discussed before, you can see where Garrett took a copy of the report to W.G. Ritch. That's in Morrison's book. Back to the Coroner's report, I have seen a picture of the one in Spanish and have one book with a picture of it. (It just not as good and the one I saw years ago.)

[Wayne Land]

Well now, I never questioned whether there "was" a coroner's report. Just whether or not it was legit. The story I got is that the first one was lost and Garrett wrote out a replacement. So the members of the jury all signed it. Under duress possibly? The report says they found Billy's body in Maxwell's house. Yet we have this claim the body was immediately moved to a carpenter's shop and laid out for a wake, with candles around it.

I still haven't seen one bit of other documentation, first hand documentation, where someone stated or wrote that they both "saw" the body of the man Garrett had shot and "recognized" or "identified" it as their acquaintance "Billy The Kid". That is other than Garrett, Poe, McKinney, maybe Maxwell, Silva and maybe Deluvina. Silva and Deluvina would have both been willing to lie to cover for Billy's faked death and Maxwell never really spoke about that night. Poe himself admitted to Frank Coe that "they" had lied about that night to protect the reputation of a woman that he apparently thought was Paulita and then later discovered was not. He told Coe that they had all recognized Billy, yet there's no question his first comment to Garrett was "you've shot the wrong man".

[Thain Timmertberg]

i thot Silva gave another interview where he said he believed the Kid was alive. Either way I do not believe in the Lost Interviews of Billy the Kid. There were too many differences than Alias Billy the Kid and I believe Alias Billy the Kid was more accurate. It's been too long now but I remember trying to decide which to believe and I came up with the Alias Billy the Kid book as more reliable. I think debating these two books and the differences (and the similarities) would be a SUPER GREAT INTERESTING DISCUSSION. Sorry I can't start it myself but I'm a little rusty.

Perhaps get Mr. W. C. Jameson involved.