DNA Study

[Texas Truth Teller]

"I've been of one of two opinions: either Brushy was The Kid, or he was a member of his gang, else how would he know things nobody else knew (only to be confirmed decades later by historians). I think, however, if one gives credence to the notion that Brushy was indeed a friend of Billy's, it only strengthens Brushy's claims of being The Kid. Why? Because it would throw a bunch of skeptics out into the cold, if there was indeed proof that he was NOT Ollie Roberts, and was indeed born in the 1850s. Because that has ALWAYS been their greatest weapon against Brushy, is the assumption of identity and Brushy's niece saying that he was Ollie. "

Rufus,
May I recommend that you read "The Saga of Billy the Kid", by Walter Noble Burns, a 1925 publication renewed in 1953? Copies are still available at a reasonable cost from Amazon.

Brushy Bill's description of characters and events of the Lincoln County war follows very closely the text found in "The Saga of Billy the Kid".
Just saying that Brushy Bill wasn't necessarily a participant in the Lincoln County war.

Brushy Bill said that his "step-aunt" was Kathrine Bonney; both Pat Garret in "The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid" and Walter Noble Burns in "The Saga of Billy the Kid" also identified the woman who later married Antrim as Katherine Bonney. Waldo E. Koop located the Santa Fe marriage record of Catherine McCarty and William H. Antrim. If Brushy Bill had been cared for by his step-aunt, surely he would have known her name was Catherine McCarty, not Kathrine Bonney. The books he read all said Billy the Kid's mother was Kathrine Bonney.

[Wayne Land]

All that proves absolutely zilch. Just because she listed her name as McCarty on the wedding certificate doesn't mean she wasn't Bonney before she married McCarty. So Brushy agreed with Burns and Garrett. Maybe that's because they were right? I don't believe Brushy did a lot of reading. But even if he did, you can not prove him a fraud because his story agreed with certain authors without proving those authors incorrect. Were there not some parts of his story that "disagreed" with Burns and Garrett? So how did he decide which parts of Burns' book to quote and which ones not to quote?

[Texas Truth Teller]

Dec 29, 2015 21:08:08 GMT -5 Wayne Land said:

All that proves absolutely zilch. Just because she listed her name as McCarty on the wedding certificate doesn't mean she wasn't Bonney before she married McCarty. So Brushy agreed with Burns and Garrett. Maybe that's because they were right? I don't believe Brushy did a lot of reading. But even if he did, you can not prove him a fraud because his story agreed with certain authors without proving those authors incorrect. Were there not some parts of his story that "disagreed" with Burns and Garrett? So how did he decide which parts of Burns' book to quote and which ones not to quote?

I'm getting old and forgetful.  Tell me again what proof there is that Brushy Bill's last name was Roberts, other than the fact that he said his half-sister, Martha Roberts Heath was his cousin.

[Wayne Land]

There is no proof his real last name was Roberts but that doesn't mean it wasn't. And I'm not quite sure why you would ask that. I thought the question we are trying to answer was about his first name. Was he William H. Roberts or was he Oliver P. Roberts? Either way, his last name was Roberts. So what are you getting at?

[Texas Truth Teller]

Waco Tribune-Herald, 15 January 1950

Brushy Bill Home From New York

Hico, Jan. 14 - SPL- O. L. (Brushy Bill) Roberts, one of six “corroborating witnesses” who are supporting J. Frank Dalton in his claims to being the real Jesse James, was due to return to Hico this week from New York, where he has spent the week with Dalton.
Roberts, who appeared on a radio program in New York Sunday night with other witnesses, claims to be 90 years old and to have known James in his banditry days. Dalton went to New York from Missouri to announce that he had filed suit to change his name to Jesse Woodson James.
Roberts was also a guest of Dalton’s last September when he attended his host’s 102nd birthday party at Meramec Caverns, Stanton, Mo He was given both trips with all expenses paid.
After living in this section as a boy, Roberts, who dresses in typical Western regalia, returned to Hico in 1941 to spend the rest of his life. He claims to have ridden in Wild West shows with Buffalo Bill Cody, to have broken wild cattle in South America, to have served as a Texas Ranger in 1891 and 1892, to have represented Texas as a horse rider in the Cheyenne Roundup of 1899, and to have worked on a Mexican ranch during the Mexican revolution. He carries pictures, relics, and documents to support his claims, and he has written his memoirs.
*****
"All these years I've been running and hiding." But he carried pictures, relics, and documents to support his claims?

[R Hayes]

he had a brother or half brother Joseph, and a daughter Florentina Yerby, so why don't they use their dna ?

[mikegolfpro]

I believe you are referring to Joseph Antrim. His body was given to science at some University if I am not mistaken. I think I read that somewhere, most likely on this site. I have to say I know nothing regarding Florentina Yerby, except to say I don't think Brushy Bill Roberts had any children. I could be wrong!

[Wayne Land]

The only DNA test I can think of that would prove anything would be to retrieve DNA from Brushy's grave and compare it to descendants of the Henry and Elizabeth Roberts, the parents of Oliver Pleasant Roberts. If there was no match there it would only prove that Brushy was "not" the real Oliver P. Roberts as many believe him to be. To prove him as Billy The Kid would require a match with DNA from Katherine Antrim who he claimed was his Aunt. But no one knows for sure exactly where Antrim's body is buried and there is even question as to where Brushy's body actually lies. To top that all, both Silver City and Hamilton have refused to allow exhumations. So, DNA testing is not likely to ever happen. Unfortunately.

[Texas Truth Teller]

Wayne,
I agree that the only meaningful DNA test would be a comparison of YDNA samples from a descendant of Thomas U. Roberts, and from the grave of Brushy Bill. YDNA is passed from father to son, usually unchanged. Mutations can and do occasionally occur at random loci. A perfect match, or one or two mismatched alleles, would confirm that Brushy Bill was the brother of Thomas U. Roberts. A gross mismatch of many alleles would prove that Brushy Bill was not related to Thomas U Roberts.

Oliver P. Roberts, also known as Brushy Bill, had 4 wives during his lifetime, but no known children.

[Wayne Land]

TTT,

Sounds like you are quite the expert on DNA. My meager understanding based on very minimal internet research differs slightly. I'm thinking they would need to compare mitochondrial DNA which I believe is passed down from mother to child. If Brushy "was" a paternal cousin to Oliver P. Roberts as he claimed, would not the YDNA still present a match? I don't know. But the mitochondrial DNA, if I'm right, would be more conclusive since Brushy Bill claims he and Oliver P. had different, unrelated mothers. Maybe I'm wrong on that point. As I say, you sound like the real expert here (on many fronts).

[Texas Truth Teller]

Wayne,
No expert, just a participant in a YDNA test that verified descendants of 5 men were closely related as shown by a paper trail, and proved that the other two men previously believed to be related to the 5 were not related. The greater the number of alleles (loci on the chromosome) characterized, the greater the confidence level of the relationship, or lack thereof.

As I understand the genealogical value of DNA testing, YDNA is a patriarchal link, passed only from father to son. It is a valuable genealogical resource in determining close relationships, and proving lack of relationship. The exact relationship of those closely related cannot be determined, i. e., father - son, uncle -nephew, great-grandfather - great grandson, 1st cousin-3rd cousin.

mtDNA is a matriarchal link passed from mother to all of her children. Only her daughters can pass their mtDNA to their children.

You are correct about the uncertainty of a YDNA test IF Martha Vada Roberts Heath was Brushy Bill's cousin, for there is conclusive proof that she was the daughter of Henry Oliver Roberts. There is NO proof that J. H. Roberts existed, or that Henry Oliver Roberts was his younger brother. Just because Brushy Bill said he was the son of J. H. Roberts doesn't make it so. Just because Brushy Bill said Martha Heath was his cousin doesn't make it so.

A definitive YDNA test would require a DNA sample from Brushy, and any male Roberts descended from his brothers, Thomas U. Roberts or Andrew Berry Roberts.

For a mitochondrial test to be definitive, Brushy's DNA sample would need to be compared to a sample from any brother or sister of Oliver P. Roberts, or a matrilineal descendant of his sister, Mary Cordelia Roberts Adams. Brushy's half-sisters Martha Roberts Heath and Samantha Roberts Arnold have the mtDNA of their mother, Caroline Dunn and must be excluded from consideration. Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson was the mother of the remaining children of Henry Oliver Roberts.

Either a YDNA match, or a mtDNA match would be definitive provided the foregoing samples could be obtained.

[Wayne Land]

It sounds like you are agreeing in a round about way. "IF" (just humor me for a moment) there really was a John Henry Roberts, father of William Henry Roberts (Brushy) and brother or cousin to Henry Oliver Roberts then YDNA testing would confirm relationship between Brushy and other male descendants of Henry Oliver "even if" Brushy's story was true and he really was Billy The Kid? So nothing would be proven either way. Whereas, a mitochondrial DNA match with children of Sarah Elizabeth would prove he had the same mother as them and would prove he really was Oliver Pleasant Roberts while a mismatch would prove he could not be the real Oliver Pleasant and would therefore make it more likely his story of being Billy The Kid might be the truth?

[Texas Truth Teller]

Wayne,
YDNA test results would prove Brushy Bill was closely related to Thomas U. Roberts.

YDNA test results would prove nothing to those who believe Brushy Bill's unsubstantiated claims that he was the son of J. H. Roberts, and that J. H. Roberts was related to Henry Oliver Roberts. The father of Henry Oliver Roberts was Joseph Roberts of Virginia. Land records show Joseph was a resident of Rusk County, Texas. Brushy Bill claimed the father of J. H. Roberts was Ben Roberts, of Nacogdoches, Texas.

Matching mtDNA results could not be disputed.

[Wayne Land]

I "think" that's what I said.

[mckinley412]

I hope you are correct Wayne. I have a tiny little understanding of DNA also but this is something I'd like to know for sure because there is a possibility this could be done soonish, I'm hoping. We should be able to compare Brushy DNA to the Mother of Oliver aka Henry's wife or any of their children (good point) and see if there is a match. If yes, then he wasn't the Kid, if no, then it is likely.