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Post by MissyS on Nov 9, 2023 12:38:14 GMT -5
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Nov 9, 2023 18:31:07 GMT -5
What makes it more bizarre/suspicious is the kind of gun Billy supposedly was using. A 41 thunderer, which was not one of the guns he was known to have. Then again I tell people to use a thought experiment when it comes to eyewitness accounts: Imagine you and a group of friends went on a getaway trip for a week, and then were tasked to write about it afterwards. Some accounts would be short, some long. Some would have a lot of details, some would have few details. Others would not mention details the others had and others would have details the others didn't. While there are differences in the accounts, one must ask, "Are they so dissimilar from each other to dismiss them all as fraudulent?", and I guess that is up to the individual to decide. But differences in testimonies and absence of details does not mean that there wasn't a gun. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all |
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Post by nmjames on Nov 10, 2023 2:21:53 GMT -5
In an interview with Mr. Haley, Deluvina said that the story that she was there and went in with a candle to see if Billy was dead was not true. I did not see Billy the night after he was killed, but saw him the following morning.
Garrett, Poe and Pete all said that Billy had a gun. Garrett and Poe said it was a .41 Colt Double Action. I have a copy of a report to the county commissioners where Garrett tells them he has the guns and ask what to do with them. They told him to sell them. The pistol was said to have gone to Billy Burt in Lincoln and it was said he sold it, but no one knows where it went to. A museum in Arkansas thinks they have the pistol. I have pictures of it but question if it belonged to Billy.
There is a story about Billy trading a chuck wagon cook his pistol for a .41 Colt on or about July 4, 1881. Billy wanted try it out and said he would return it but was killed on July 14, 1881. I have pictures of the pistol said to have belong to Billy and the story of the trade. It was in the museum in Ruidoso for a few years but has been returned to the owner.
Who knows if it is true. Again, I do have a copy of Garrett's report on the pistol and a rifle taken off of Billy in 1881.
nmjames
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Nov 10, 2023 13:49:38 GMT -5
The oddity for me is the Colt Thunderer that Garrett said The Kid had. The Kid was known for his Winchester rifle and Colt Lightning revolver. The Lightning was smaller and lighter than the Thunderer, which was a double action revolver as well.
When The Kid escaped the jail he allegedly stole three weapons: The rifle and 2 pistols, and none of them were a Colt Thunderer. The armory accounted for what weapons were missing and what serial numbers they were. I think only the rifle was ever recovered.
I've heard stories that Garrett told the locals to sell the horse, saddle, and guns that The Kid had but that doesn't make one iota of sense because if you did kill The Kid you'd want to bring back the stolen weapons to prove you did indeed kill The Kid.
I wonder, though, whether the Colt Thunderer might've been the gun left in the outhouse for The Kid to make his escape in the first place. If that story itself is even true. It seems even the known history of The Kid is so interwoven in myths that it's difficult to say exactly what did happen at different times.
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by MissyS on Nov 10, 2023 14:30:30 GMT -5
I’m wondering if the Kid or Barlow even had a gun on him when he was shot? It seems to me that if Pat Garrett left two deputies outside as guards and a man walks up armed with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, that the two guards would be covering him with their guns and asking questions as to who he was? Not the other way around. I’m wondering if it was told the Kid had a gun on him because it would fair better than the public hearing Garrett shot an unarmed man? The Shepherd’s story passed down may be the only witness statement that may can give a clue as to what gun Billy had on him two days before the shooting with Pat Garrett? If it can be believed that the story was related exactly as it was first told. swja.library.arizona.edu/content/fearless-sheepherder-new-mexico-frontier |
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Post by nmjames on Nov 10, 2023 16:33:19 GMT -5
MissyS, do you think that Billy would hold a gun on the man and make him drink? I think it is just another of 100s of stories. The best person to answer your question about what happen the night Billy was killed is John W. Poe from his book. If you will read Poe's full statement and not just the part about him saying, Pat you have shot the wrong man, Poe explains his statement and I think it will answer your question.
nmjames
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Post by RonBk on Nov 10, 2023 16:53:14 GMT -5
I think the story may be true. It would make sense if Billy the Kid wanted to ask the guy his name and purpose for being in the area. Billy was probably keeping an eye out for people coming to get him. Buy a man a drink of whiskey and he will speak freely, makes sense. So from this story we get a clear indication Billy the kid had his usual weapon of choice in his possession july 12 and that was no Colt Thunderer.
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Post by nmjames on Nov 10, 2023 17:04:51 GMT -5
billybarlowoffical, since I was a young man, I have been told by gun collectors and historians that Billy favored the 1877 Colt Thunderer. Pat Garrett said Billy had a Thunderer on him and he did take it back to Lincoln and it was sold to Billy Burt. You can also find this in Chas. A. Siringo's book. However, in the picture of Billy it looks like he has an 1873 single action pistol.
In August 1998, there was an article, Auction Update by Robert Kyle. A .45 Caliber single-action Colt used by Billy the Kid was auctioned and sold for $46,000. The story said it was one of the guns Billy took from Lincoln. If you remember the gun left in a tree story, it was said to be that gun. It has the serial number and the person that purchased it. The gun that was in the Ruidoso Museum would have been the other pistol. I can dig out the Cherokee Davis story but who knows if any of this is true.
Another thing you might want to look at is the Jim Earle auction from 2021. If I remember, they had a rifle that Garrett gave to J.C. Lea and it was said to be the one taken off of Billy when he was killed.
I was in the Lincoln Courthouse some years back and a man ask one of the Rangers about Billy's guns. He told the man he didn't know what happen to them but has held more Billy guns than Billy ever held.
nmjames
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Post by MissyS on Nov 10, 2023 18:44:32 GMT -5
MissyS, do you think that Billy would hold a gun on the man and make him drink? I think it is just another of 100s of stories. The best person to answer your question about what happen the night Billy was killed is John W. Poe from his book. If you will read Poe's full statement and not just the part about him saying, Pat you have shot the wrong man, Poe explains his statement and I think it will answer your question. nmjames Thank You nmjames, I will check out that statement from Poe. Holding a gun on a man and make him drink doesn’t sound like the nice gentlemanly Billy that I read so much that he was. After his arrest it may have made him more tough? I don’t know if it’s true that Billy said that “People thought me bad before, but if ever I should get free, I'll let them know what bad means” The Shepherd story may not be true or all true some could be exaggerated. I thought it interesting because it’s a last witness account only two days before the shooting that mentioned the Kid’s gun. Since Garrett, Poe and Pete all said Billy had a gun, maybe it was taken from him before Deluvina came on the scene and she didn’t see it, that could explain why she would say the Kid only had a knife.  |
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Post by MissyS on Nov 11, 2023 1:57:43 GMT -5
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Post by thumbuster on Nov 27, 2023 15:10:09 GMT -5
I'm glad that a memorial to Deluvina Maxwell was held. She is an important part of the saga of the Kid. Most of the pictures that we see of Deluvina show her as elderly and very large, but my photograph of her shows her posed with the Kid and Paulita. Deluvina is young and petite. She looks like a teen to me. The trio are posed after returning, or maybe leaving for a fishing trip. They appear to be standing among the debre along the Pecos River. Paulita is holding a fishing pole and wears a kreel. Billy holds a very nice 3/4 magazine Winchester rifle. His dog sits next to him. Looks like an orange and white Springer Spaniel. I've heard that Billy had a pet dog and this is the best picture that I have seen of it. As the story goes, on the day of the evening that Billy was killed he had been riding and hiding out on the prairie. In the early evening he rode to the Maxwell ranch and picketed his horse. He entered the kitchen where Deluvina was working as the cook/housekeeper for the Maxwell family. He was exhausted. Deluvina was delighted to see him. He plopped into a chair and dropped his gun belt to the floor and kicked off his boots. He asked for something to drink stating that he was hungry as a horse. (or words to that effect) Deluvina gave him something to drink and handed him a kitchen knife telling him there was a beef hanging on the porch and suggested that he go over there and cut off a hunk and she'd cook it up for him. Billy agreed, jumped up and while still in his stocking feet ran over to the porch. He jumped up onto the porch and then noticed two men standing, or maybe sitting there talking and probably smoking. Billy brushed past them. They saw him, of course, but had no idea who he was and neither did he know who they were. Billy knew that Pete Maxwell's bedroom was right there and he decided to go inside and ask Pete who those men were.....and the rest, as they say, is history. |
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Post by thumbuster on Nov 27, 2023 15:32:12 GMT -5
I’m wondering if the Kid or Barlow even had a gun on him when he was shot? It seems to me that if Pat Garrett left two deputies outside as guards and a man walks up armed with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, that the two guards would be covering him with their guns and asking questions as to who he was? Not the other way around. I’m wondering if it was told the Kid had a gun on him because it would fair better than the public hearing Garrett shot an unarmed man? The Shepherd’s story passed down may be the only witness statement that may can give a clue as to what gun Billy had on him two days before the shooting with Pat Garrett? If it can be believed that the story was related exactly as it was first told. swja.library.arizona.edu/content/fearless-sheepherder-new-mexico-frontierGarrett knew that the Kid was dangerous and he took him seriously. So he asked his deputies to wait outside in case the kid came along. They had never seen Billy and when they did see him that night they were not prepared to meet up with a little guy in his stocking feet. Billy, I think, left his gun in the kitchen with Deluvina. He wasn't expecting to see Garrett or his deputies. He was over there to cut a piece of meat for his meal. |
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Post by thumbuster on Nov 27, 2023 18:25:19 GMT -5
Might as well introduce myself to this group. I signed up yesterday and I think I am a member now. I've been posting re:Billy for several years now, but I stopped a few years ago. I am not a spring chicken and I fumble along with computers. Am far from confident on them. I am a McCarty. My family has for generations said that we are related to the Kid. His father being the brother of my great, great grandfather, Elijah McCarty. He died in 1929. My dad knew him well. My dad died in 1997. According to my family Billy's dad was John McCarty who died in Andersonville on 6 Nov 1864 (65?). You can look him up. You can even see a pic of his headstone in that prison. I own a great many tintype photographs that I found within a collection once owned by Sallie Lucy Chisum. They are of her family (Chisums) and friends including most of the Regulators. I've posted most of my pictures several years ago, can't find them now
, but I still own the originals...Sixty of them. Two nice pics of the Kid and all of the Regulators cept Fred Waite. Nice pics of Frank MacNab among the rest. I've got a few of the House Ring: J.J. Dolan and Bob Olinger posed with Lily Casey to whom he was engaged to marry. Anyway, you do not have to believe me. I'm just say'n hello. Steve McCarty.
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Post by chivato88 on Nov 27, 2023 20:01:46 GMT -5
Welcome to the board Steve, already a few post in and very interesting!
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Post by MissyS on Nov 27, 2023 20:22:46 GMT -5
Welcome to the board Steve. Very Interesting family history. looking forward to discussing Billy and Brushy with you.  |
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