Did Billy the Kid really say it?

[MissyS]

I read in many of the older news articles the popular words credited to Billy the Kid as having said that he killed twenty one men, one man for every year of his life. Was it ever revealed when he said that line and to whom? Where did this comment actually come from? I don’t think Billy the Kid was known to brag, but had told some persons that he was accused of things he didn’t do and didn’t get a fair deal. Why would he tell people he killed twenty one men? I believe the comment may have been exaggerated for emphases for headlines. I don’t believe Brushy ever mentioned he had told that comment back when he was twenty one years old, and if Brushy was repeating information about Billy the Kid that he read, then it seems he would have mentioned that he had killed twenty one men if that was the popular quote attributed to Billy the Kid in the headlines. Interestingly Brushy didn’t mention killing  twenty one men. I believe he didn’t because Billy the Kid didn’t really say it. 

[chivato88]

I remember reading that Jose Chavez Y Chavez said that Billy killed 21 men and even made notches on his gun. I dont believe it and Chavez was not the most truthful fellow. Maybe the rumor came from him.

[MissyS]

Jan 7, 2023 6:03:00 GMT -5 chivato88 said:

I remember reading that Jose Chavez Y Chavez said that Billy killed 21 men and even made notches on his gun. I dont believe it and Chavez was not the most truthful fellow. Maybe the rumor came from him.

Thanks Chivato88, That quote  may have started from Chavez Y Chavez then. I remember reading that Chavez Y Chavez had said that he was the one that actually shot Sheriff Brady, I don’t know if he really said that. There was a story I remember reading I don’t know how true about a traveling sheepherder named Sol Florsheim that ran into Billy the Kid at a bar two days before the shooting in Fort Sumner and there was a description of the gun he had on him, he was wanting to trade Billy for his gun and Billy refused to trade guns preferring his gun described with a wood handle that had a notch for every man he killed and at that time there was twenty one men, that story was retold by his son Carl in 1953. There was so many stories told about the number of men Billy the Kid killed and  most say twenty one but one story may be copying the number from another? Maybe the gun that Sol seen with the notches on it was one that Billy had taken from the armory at the jail when he escaped and it had belonged to someone else? 

[chivato88]

He also claimed that he killed Albert J Fountain and his son wich also I dont believe. He was not present when Brady fell to his death but I think he wanted to join the gang when they rode to Lincoln, but Billy told him to stay put because Brady's wife was hispanic, am I wrong? I think Charlie and Doc stayed put for the same reason, both married to the Herrera sisters.Anyways poor old Chavez was looking for fame and glory with those claims...

[Elwood]

Jan 8, 2023 2:36:19 GMT -5 MissyS said:

Jan 7, 2023 6:03:00 GMT -5 chivato88 said:

I remember reading that Jose Chavez Y Chavez said that Billy killed 21 men and even made notches on his gun. I dont believe it and Chavez was not the most truthful fellow. Maybe the rumor came from him.

Thanks Chivato88, That quote  may have started from Chavez Y Chavez then. I remember reading that Chavez Y Chavez had said that he was the one that actually shot Sheriff Brady, I don’t know if he really said that. There was a story I remember reading I don’t know how true about a traveling sheepherder named Sol Florsheim that ran into Billy the Kid at a bar two days before the shooting in Fort Sumner and there was a description of the gun he had on him, he was wanting to trade Billy for his gun and Billy refused to trade guns preferring his gun described with a wood handle that had a notch for every man he killed and at that time there was twenty one men, that story was retold by his son Carl in 1953. There was so many stories told about the number of men Billy the Kid killed and  most say twenty one but one story may be copying the number from another? Maybe the gun that Sol seen with the notches on it was one that Billy had taken from the armory at the jail when he escaped and it had belonged to someone else? 

The day after Billy the Kid was allegedly shot by Pat Garrett in July 1881, the local newspaper reported:

15 July 1881, The Lincoln County Leader, New Mexico, by John Gerald Griffin.



"Sheriff Pat Garrett, elected by the people of Lincoln County on his personal promise that he would rid this area of cattle rustlers and horse thieves, and fight it out with Billy the Kid, kept his promise last night, July 14, 1881, when he killed The Kid in Pete Maxwell's bedroom outside Fort Sumner. Maxwell, the eyewitness, is the son of the late Lucian B. Maxwell, former owner of the spacious Beaubien-Miranda land grant, known as the Maxwell Land Grant."



"Just a little past his 21st birthday, The Kid was buried in a borrowed white shirt, much too large for him, in a thrown together wooden coffin made by a village handyman. He lies in the same cemetery alongside Tom Folliard, Charlie Bowdre, Lucien Maxwell and Juanita Garrett, bride of Pat Garrett.”



"Bonney has no known relatives. It is reported that his mother, a Mrs. Antrim, died in Silver City several years ago. A brother and sister are reported as alive, but their whereabouts are unknown at this time."



"The boy who boasted of having killed 21 men, one for each year of his life, is dead, killed by a gentleman without the loud bruster, big pistol talking manners many believe accompanies courage and resolution."

[chivato88]

Thanks for the reply Elwood! So the rumors may have come from the newspapers.

[MissyS]

Looks like the popular quote started as early as the day after the shooting. For a quote that was probably untrue it caught on. Interestingly that same article mentions Billy the Kid having a sister.

[thumbuster]

Jan 7, 2023 6:03:00 GMT -5 chivato88 said:

I remember reading that Jose Chavez Y Chavez said that Billy killed 21 men and even made notches on his gun. I dont believe it and Chavez was not the most truthful fellow. Maybe the rumor came from him.

I don't think that Billy was the kind of guy who bragged about the men he killed. I don't think he enjoyed killing. What he did enjoy however was a good old fashioned gunfight.  George Coe wrote that when the bullets were flying (my words) that Billy was in  his prime and he was a natural leader.  Men were drawn to his enthusiasm during a gunfight. However I do not think that Billy enjoyed killing. He probably thought that sometimes it was necessary, but he'd just as soon avoid doing it. 

Billy probably killed four men: Morton, Baker, Bell and Olinger.  He may have put bullets into Carlye (sp?) and Indian Segura. I don't know about them.  Did Billy Kill Robt Beckwith?  Maybe. Did he hit a guy or two during the Five Day battle?  Could be, but I am quite sure that Billy did not kill 21 men.  That honor fell to men like John Westley Harden, who killed people for the fun of it.  Mostly African Americans and Hispanics. 

(late entry: as I think back on my post here I have realized that I left out Billy's murder of Texas Red Grant.  There were several witnesses to that shooting, including Willie Chisum and his dad John S., so I think it happened and Billy did it.)

[thumbuster]

Jan 8, 2023 10:36:41 GMT -5 chivato88 said:

He also claimed that he killed Albert J Fountain and his son wich also I dont believe. He was not present when Brady fell to his death but I think he wanted to join the gang when they rode to Lincoln, but Billy told him to stay put because Brady's wife was hispanic, am I wrong? I think Charlie and Doc stayed put for the same reason, both married to the Herrera sisters.Anyways poor old Chavez was looking for fame and glory with those claims...

As far as I know the murders of Albert Fountain and his son (I think he was 8 years old.) has never been solved.