Joe Salazar: Family Relationship to Billy The Kid?

[MissyS]

Rufus,
Thanks for posting the article it’s quite an interesting article it states that Frank & Jesse James had visited Cimarron NM, and also Billy the Kid as well. Ramon Bonney coming to visit Billy in Jail is something to research further, I read that Billy had told school friends he was related to the pirate Ann Bonney spelled I believe Bonny?, reading about her life she was born Ann McCormac and eloped with another pirate named James Bonny (or Bonney) this was in the 1700’s, she also had a ship named “William” Pat Garrett was well acquainted with a family named Bonney even attended a wedding and a member of the family a Cecil Bonney interestingly was said to have sold Garrett the bullets that he supposedly shot Billy with, this family according to a descendant was not related to Billy the Kid. 


www.rdrnews.com/2017/08/13/looking-back-writers-block-and-the-first-day-of-school/

[Deleted]

As Missy pointed out to me, there is a poem attached to the article where the summary of Weisner's theory is outlined. I think it a bit too long, but according to the poem it was Weisner's belief that Billy The Kid would've been 16 years old when Pat Garrett killed him--- if indeed Catherine's father was James Bonney of Missouri.

For all intents and purposes, I don't think that is at all feasible considering Billy The Kid is listed on records (ie, marriage witness) as being 12 years old when Catherine married William Antrim, and if that's true then he was 21 at death.

Ironically, though, if Brushy Bill Roberts was born in 1868 he'd of been 13 years old in 1881 which is just a mere 3 years short of Weisner's theory of The Kid being 16 in 1881.

From all that I gather, it's more likely that Billy The Kid was older rather than younger than 21 years of age. After all The Kid himself in a census one year earlier claimed to be 24 years of age. However, it's more likely that The Kid generally gave false information about himself all the time, to keep people off his trail or for other reasons.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊

[MissyS]

I wonder if it could be possible Billy was a little younger than 21 at the time of the Fort Sumner incident?, maybe he told people he was older to get work? I don’t want to change the subject of the thread on one on Billy’s age, and I haven’t read anywhere else mentions Billy being younger than 21 in 1881, I found some information on Chauncey Truesdell, I thought perhaps his age could give a clue to Billy’s age since they were friends, I found that Chauncey claimed he was born in 1864, that would have made him 11 yrs old in 1875 when Billy the Kid was arrested by Whitehill, I also found another reference that Chauncey was born in 1866 however, and that would have made him only 9 yrs old when Billy escaped from the chimney in Silver City. Chauncey mentioned his mother giving Billy some of his clothes to wear and sending him to Dyer’s until they could decide what to do with him after Billy escaped from the chimney at the jail, so I’m wondering could a 14 yr old wear a 9 yr old’s size clothing?, maybe an 11 year old size clothing would be a better fit?, Billy being small for his age may have fit the clothes at age 14, and Chauncey may have been a larger sized kid for his age, who knows? Chauncey’s mother putting Billy on a stage and giving him money, would this have been necessary to do if he was an older boy? also I read from a couple sources that mentions Sheriff Whitehill had given Billy a spanking, I don’t know if that was true or not?, so with that thought I’m not dismissing the possibility that Billy could have been a little younger than 21 at the time of the shooting. 

[chivato88]

Paco Anaya said that Billy stayed at is home for weeks and sometimes they talked all night.I think I remember Paco saying that Billy was born May 1861. I never believed he was 21 the night of the shooting, Garrett might have said he was 21 so he wouldn't look bad for shooting a teenager altought he did not kill him 😀

[Deleted]

Thoughts to consider:

#1- The average height of an adult male in Europe in 1850 was 5'5", and during the American Civil War the average American soldier was 5'7".

For extra added emphasis, my 4th great grandfather was 5'4" and 140 pounds according to his military file; my father is/was 5'11" and his father was 6'1" so height differentials between then and now are quite striking.

#2- Billy The Kid is said to have been 5'8" in height, so he would've been slightly above the average. Not long ago the forum did a rough estimate of his height based on the tintype photograph and the consensus was somewhere between 5'8"-5'9".

#3- So if Billy The Kid borrowed clothes from a 9 or 11 year old boy, that child would've had to of been pretty large for his age, or Billy The Kid was practically starved to death weighing almost as much as the child. I lean towards the former rather than the latter.

#4- Ironically Truesdell said that Billy The Kid was a rather small and skinny child. It's said that Joseph, the brother or half brother of Billy The Kid, was much bigger than Billy. I wonder if either The Kid was a late bloomer (height wise) or that he just seemed piddly in comparison to the bigger boys.

#5- This just adds to the confusion because if Chauncey Truesdell was younger than The Kid it's interesting how a 9 or 11 year old boy could see a teenager as being small or scrawny, when the photographic evidence and testimonials say The Kid ended up being 5'8" unless the growth spurt came later.

#6- The name "Kid" became a thing from 1875 onwards, in part, because of Billy's diminutive size as well as his youthful looks. In 1873 it's claimed by some that Billy was 12 years old at the time. In 1878, he was said by some to be 17 years old. Another source for the same year says he was 16 years old. If he was 12 in 1873, he was 20 in 1881. All in all he was somewhere between 19 and 21.

#7- Unrelated, but Pat Garrett himself was 6'4" which was something of a rarity in those times especially among working class American's as height was generally a common thing among the well-to-do who had access to more nutrition.

#8- Truesdell's mother and father, best of my understanding, were people of means or better means than that of Billy The Kid and his family, so it could be the fact that Chauncey Truesdell was a big kid because his family had access to more nutrition.

newspaperarchive.com/celebrity-clipping-jan-06-1952-682375/

Old newspaper from 1952 which says Truesdell lived with Billy The Kid off and on from the time he was 8 to 12, so here we have a pre-teen. Ironically, Truesdell always maintained that Joseph was the older sibling, or at least looked it. The age of 12 makes more sense, not just physically, but socially.

#9- It's difficult to imagine a 16 year old, or older teenager, actually being friends with a child no matter how much you got along with the family. Different social circles, etc--- but a 12 year old boy being friends with a 16 year old makes a bit more sense. It also makes more sense how a 16+ year old could fit into a 12 year old boys clothes rather than a 9-11 year olds clothes.

#10- Conclusion? I think that Truesdell was 12 years old when The Kid borrowed clothes from him, and since his parents were business owners that he had better nutrition and was slightly bigger for his age than The Kid would've been at the same age, and since The Kid was something of a late bloomer that's enough to explain how The Kid could've worn the clothes.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊

[Deleted]

According to the book "Alias Billy The Kid," by Donald Cline, Chauncey Truesdell said that Billy's full name was Michael Henry McCarty, yet at another time he said that his name was Billy. The name Michael is something that is rather perplexing because I don't think it was ever used in the adult life of Billy The Kid, and I don't think there's any evidence he ever used it even as a child.

Then again, Cline asserts that Billy The Kid was born to an Edward McCarthy in the Fourth Ward in New York and cites an officer named Dwyer as evidence that The Kid was remembered by the old neighborhood.

In 2020, even True West Magazine has conceded that everything that is known about Billy The Kid could be wrong so Cline's assertions in his book are to be taken with a grain of salt. A review some years ago from John Hopkins University on the book was not too flattering, saying that the facts were fitted to suit an agenda rather than present the truth.

As for the name Michael, if it really was The Kid's name it certainly works against Brushy Bill Roberts because there's no mention of the name Michael anywhere in his narrative. Ironically, Truesdell lived until the 1950s and yet Brushy never once mentioned Truesdell in his story either.

It would've been interesting to have ever gotten Truesdell's opinion on the claims that Billy The Kid survived, or his thoughts on claimants. Then again the last time Truesdell said he saw him was in 1877.


Note: Brushy in "The Lost Interviews" never once mentions staying with Clara Truesdell working at her hotel, which is a verifiable fact about the historical Billy The Kid. He says that after Catherine died he went to Indian Territory and worked for a bunch of cattle rustlers, and ended up at the Daugherty Ranch and then traveled all over the mountain states before ending up in Mesilla New Mexico.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊

[Deleted]

Ironically, Chino Silva the grandson of Jesus Silva Sr, said that Billy The Kid was about 5'4" and was built like a girl because he was so much smaller than Pete Maxwell, because they had to borrow a shirt from Maxwell for Billy The Kid to be buried in and they had to pin the shirt up in the back so he'd look normal wearing the shirt.

If that's the case, it makes more sense how a 12 year old or even an 11 year old could give Billy The Kid clothes to wear--- and it'd also mean our estimations on the forum comparing the gun to Billy The Kid is also wrong; the gun would've been shortened to accommodate him.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊

P.S.

If Brushy Bill Roberts was born in 1859, as he claimed, he'd of been 22 years old in 1881. Men generally stop growing taller by age 18, and from age 20-30 achieve peak muscle mass and bone density.

Brushy Bill Roberts, based on the testimony of Morrison and others along with photographs, is estimated to be 5'8". If indeed Billy The Kid was 5'4" at death, and he was indeed 21 or at least over 18 years old, then Brushy Bill Roberts wasn't Billy The Kid.

Someone growing 4-5" after puberty is unheard of, unless that person has a glandular disorder or something genetically wrong. It just doesn't happen, because once puberty is over the growth plates within your bones solidifies and is no longer capable of lengthening.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊

[chivato88]

Sept 18, 2020 19:17:06 GMT -5 chivato88 said:

Paco Anaya said that Billy stayed at is home for weeks and sometimes they talked all night.I think I remember Paco saying that Billy was born May 1861. I never believed he was 21 the night of the shooting, Garrett might have said he was 21 so he wouldn't look bad for shooting a teenager altought he did not kill him 😀

Sorry the year 1862 not 61, my mistake 🙄

[Wayne Land]

Sept 19, 2020 17:22:51 GMT -5 @rufus said:

If Brushy Bill Roberts was born in 1859, as he claimed, he'd of been 22 years old in 1881.

Brushy said he was born Dec. 31st, 1859. That would make him 21 in July, 1881 as he had not reached his birthday yet.