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Post by RWT on Dec 20, 2014 17:57:05 GMT -5
Thanks for your prompt response. Would this be an accurate summary of why you believe Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid? 1. Pat Garret did not kill Billy the Kid. 2. Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid because he claimed to be Billy the Kid. 3. The facial characteristics of a photo of Brushy Bill are very similar to those of BTK in the famous tintype. 4. Brushy Bill was reportedly fluent in Spanish. 5. Both Martile Able and Severo Gallegos were eyewitnesses. 6. Brushy Bill predicted the location of a cave used for a hideout. 7. The 1910 census of Van Zandt County, Texas, shows that Oliver P. Roberts was born in Texas, and his parent were born in Kentucky. 8. The Texas death certificate of Ollie L. Roberts has a birth date of 31 December 1868 and birthplace of Taylor County, Texas. 9. The Oakwood Cemetery in Hamilton, Texas, has a memorial, William Henry Roberts, aka "Billy the Kid", 31 December 1859 - 24 December 1950, over the grave of Ollie L. Roberts 10. There is a Billy the Kid museum in Hico, Texas.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 20, 2014 22:25:18 GMT -5
Actually no. You've listed some things I didn't claim to be true and at the same time there are other examples I could give you that helped convince me. Your list also tends to over simplify the issues involved.
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Post by RWT on Dec 22, 2014 14:10:10 GMT -5
Census records are not notarized documents. Respondents were not required to swear that the information provided was accurate. There are discrepancies in the census records of Oliver Pleasant Robert. His name appears to be misspelled as "Olover" in the 1880 census of Sebastian County, Arkansas. The 1910 census indicates that both his parents were born in Kentucky, while all other census records indicate that his father was born in Texas and his mother was born in Arkansas. You have questioned the birthplace of his parents as reported in the 1910 census, and requested an explanation, a quite reasonable request.
Enumerators were asked to visit every household. The enumerators did not take the large census sheets as they canvassed their assigned area. They took notes at each household, recording the pertinent data as requested for that census year. They transcribed their notes onto the census sheets after they returned to their home or office. (I have viewed a New Mexico census record that was typed.) The 1910 Kentucky entries could have been the result of any of the following: 1. Anna Lee Roberts was home alone. She had been married about a year and had no idea where Oliver's parents were born and guessed that they were born in Kentucky. 2. Neither Oliver or Anna were home, and the enumerator did not want to return to the household to interview the inhabitants. A neighbor provided the information. 3. The enumerator interviewed Oliver and Anna, but failed to take notes, or lost the notes, and made entries on the census page from memory. 4. The enumerator's notes were correct, but an error was made when he transcribed the notes to the official census page. (I have viewed census records where the transcriber failed to include a member of the household, and added the missing person several pages later with an explanation in the margin.)
Another discrepancy in the record of Oliver Pleasant Roberts is his approximate age reported in various records. 1. 1880 - 1 year old 2. 1900 - 20 years old (born August 1879) 3. 1910 - 30 years old 4. 1918, 21 September WWI Draft card - 40 (born 26 August 1878) 5. 1920 - 41 years old 6. 1930 - 52 years old 7. 1940 - 70 years old 8. January 1950, a photo made in New York City of J. Frank Dalton, Col. James R Davis, 109, and Brushy Bill Roberts, - 90 years old republished in the Sunday Austin Statesman. 9. December 1950 D/C - 81 years, 11 months, 26 days
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 22, 2014 14:42:35 GMT -5
I agree any of your 4 possible explanations of how a census record can be incorrect are plausible. But you left a couple out. I would add: 5. Brushy had just recently taken on the alias of Oliver Roberts and told the census taker the truth about his birth state and his parents' birth state because he didn't think about the fact it could lead to his being discovered and sent to the gallows. In subsequent census years he realized he'd better be report the information as if he really were Oliver. 6. Brushy had told Anna the truth about his lineage and he wasn't home when the census taker came round. Anna reported what he had told her. But let's go back to my original premise for a moment. If the "mistake" occurred any of the 4 ways you listed, what are the odds that almost 40 years later, while interviewing Morrison he reported the same birth information as part of his claim of being Billy The Kid? If you believe those odds are feasible then I've got a great deal for you on a lottery ticket. I don't think the other discrepancies you listed really matter that much. Most of them are probably due to the time of year the census was done or due to simple math errors. The death certificate age reported is based on his belief that Oliver "L" Roberts was born in 1868. That's the only thing it matches up with. It doesn't jive with the age Oliver Pleasant Roberts or William H. Bonney would have been. So it has to be referring to the age of Oliver "L" Roberts.
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Post by RWT on Dec 23, 2014 14:10:35 GMT -5
Brushy Bill's claim to be Billy the Kid is meaningless until the following deficiencies in the story are disproven: 1. There is no credible evidence or record that Billy the Kid was alive after 1881. 2. There is no credible evidence or record that Oliver Pleasant Roberts vanished from the earth prior to 1910. 3. There is no credible evidence or record that Billy the Kid assumed the alias of Oliver Pleasant Roberts. 4. No census record has been found that positively identifies Billy the Kid, his age, birthplace, parents, or siblings.
The entire Brushy Bill story is based on hearsay, not fact. Even the comparison of facial characteristic is subjective, not definitive, and can be argued endlessly. A comparison of facial characterists was the same approach used by Betty Dorsett Duke, attempting to prove that her great-grandfather, James Lafayette Courtney, was Jesse Woodson James. Existing records prove James Lafayette Courtney was a bugler in the Union Army while Jesse James was riding with Quantrill's guerrillas. Her great-grandfather received a pension for his service in the Union Army. James L. Courtney can be followed from 1860 until his death in 1943 in census records. Duke tries to explain away all documented information that proves her family story is a myth, including a claim that the "real" James L. Courtney changed his named to James Haun, and Jesse Woodson James assumed his identity and became known as James L. Courtney for the rest of his life.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 23, 2014 15:36:29 GMT -5
First of all, James L. Courtney has nothing to do with Brushy Bill's claim. Your 4 points listed only demonstrate that Brushy's claim has not been conclusively proven to be true. They do not prove his claim was false. Such generalizations do not help convince me he was a fraud and do not shed any new light on the subject. There is no proof that Brushy Bill Roberts was actually Oliver Pleasant Roberts and lots of reasons to believe he was not.
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Post by RWT on Dec 23, 2014 16:36:15 GMT -5
You are correct. Brushy Bill's claim has yet to be proven true, and never will be. James L. Courtney has nothing in common with Brushy Bill, save for the fact that each has an advocate claiming that a dead man assumed an alias of a living person for the rest of his life. Everyone has the right to believe any story. Genealogists choose to believe information found in census records, knowing that errors may exist. The presumption that Billy the Kid popped up in Van Zandt County in 1910 under the name of Oliver P. Roberts, parents born in Kentucky, is nothing short of preposterous, and requires a giant leap of faith. It is possible you might be Betty Dorsett Duke, using the name, "Wayne Land", as an alias. That is as preposterous as assuming Billy the Kid popped up in Van Zandt County in 1910 as Oliver P. Roberts.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 23, 2014 17:22:03 GMT -5
Actually, I never claimed to be Betty Dorsett Duke did I? Do you think it is possible for a person to leave their home and never be heard from again on any record, census or otherwise?
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Post by RWT on Dec 31, 2014 19:28:04 GMT -5
Might be an interesting book:
Here's the Table of Contents of Roy's book, Brushy Bill: Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale?
Acknowledgments
Introduction ... 1
The Story Begins - Morrison's Interviews with Brushy ... 5
Name And Date Problems Begin ... 7
The Magical Aging of Ollie/Brushy ... 11
Brushy's Fictional Genealogy ... 15
Brushy’s Mother Misidentification … 19
How Did Brushy Derive His Paternal Genealogy? ... 21
Mother & Place of Birth Problems ... 23
False Genealogical Leaps by Authors ... 27
Huge Genealogical Error by Brushy ... 37
Brushy, William Henry, and Ollie (all the same) … 39
What the Family Thought of Brushy ... 41
What a Hamilton Resident Thought of Brushy ... 47
Putting It All Together, A Reasonable Theory ... 49
Brushy's Timeline Conflicts ... 55
Twenty-Four More Holes in Brushy's Fable ... 69
Affidavits Obtained by Morrison & Brushy ... 91
Brushy and Billy Facial Comparisons ... 95
Brushy and Billy Handwriting Comparisons ... 97
Brushy's vs Billy's Wounds & Scars ... 99
Brushy & J. Frank Dalton - Fraud by Association? ... 101
Uncle Kit Carson - Role Model for Brushy? ... 103
Governor Wallace's Promised Pardon ... 109
More False Documentation from Mr. Tunstill ... 111
More So-Called Brushy Believer Proof ... 115
The Theory of Two Olivers ... 117
In Conclusion ... 123
Appendices 125
Bibliography 147
Index 151
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Post by Wayne Land on Jan 1, 2015 16:48:46 GMT -5
I would read your book. I really would and I think you should write it. Or, maybe you already have? I think I've heard all those arguments, or that is, reasons why Brushy had to be lying, but I might find something new to consider. Always interesting.
BTW, can you answer my previous question? I'm not asking whether you think Oliver Pleasant Roberts disappeared, just whether it is possible for anyone to disappear like I believe he did.
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Post by RWT on Jan 2, 2015 14:11:23 GMT -5
There must be thousands of individuals who disappeared after appearing in one or more census records; died, and were buried in unmarked graves, which has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Oliver Pleasant Roberts appeared in every extant census record from 1880 through 1940. Ollie Robert's claim that he was Billy the Kid is an interesting story devoid of proof or fact and fodder for conspiracy theorists anxious to revise accepted history.
The book Roy Hawes has written and is selling: Paperback: 164 pages Publisher: Roy Haws Bargain Books; 1ST edition (2014) I have for sale a 164 page NEW paperback book titled "Brushy Bill ... Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale?" written by author, Roy Haws, and published in November 2014. This is a book based on the individual known as Brushy Bill Roberts that claimed to be the historical Billy the Kid. Here is a small summary of the subject matter of the book: A man known as Brushy Bill Roberts proclaimed to all who would listen that he was, in fact, the historical and legendary Billy the Kid! After recorded Brushy Bill interviews with a probate attorney beginning in 1949 and subsequent 1955 publication of the book Alias Billy the Kid, many became convinced of the validity of his claim. Brushy Bill Roberts died from a massive heart attack on the streets of Hico, Texas on December 27, 1950. This was less than a month after an unsuccessful attempt of gaining a pardon promised to Billy the Kid by Governor Lew Wallace many years in the past. Over the years, additional books were published advancing the theory Brushy was indeed Billy the Kid. In addition, the movie Young Guns II began with a re-enactment of Brushy promoting his imaginative tale to probate attorney, William V. Morrison. Other documentaries and television programs including Unsolved Mysteries have also promoted the idea that this elderly man was the Billy the Kid of historical lore. Spoiler alert! Brushy Bill Roberts was NOT Billy the Kid! He was, in fact, just an interesting elderly man, known by his family and acquaintances as a colorful Old West storyteller. Over the years, Brushy's elaborate fable captured the imagination of many. In my book, I have attempted to dispel the elaborate hoax for once and for all!
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Post by Wayne Land on Jan 2, 2015 18:21:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the info on the book. I'll try to find a copy. Of course you do understand it is my contention that while Oliver Pleasant Roberts did appear on census records from 1880 through 1940, the man being recorded as Oliver Pleasant Roberts as of 1910 was not the same man recorded prior to that. When "accepted history" is flawed it "needs" to be revised doesn't it? After 65 years, no one has "proven" Brushy's story was fraudulent. Tell you what, lets discuss some specifics. Tell me how you think Brushy knew the original layout of the court house in Lincoln when he visited there in 1949? And on the same topic, tell me why he shed tears at the prospect of visiting that building and was so reluctant to go in.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jan 2, 2015 18:32:04 GMT -5
I ordered the book and should have it later next week. I look forward to reading it in hopes it will shed new light on some of Brushy's story. I'll let you all know what I think of course. By the way, RWT, isn't Roy Hawes related to Brushy some how? I remember that name but I'm not sure.
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Post by rwt on Jan 6, 2015 17:06:27 GMT -5
Brushy Bill Debunk Society December 15, 2014 at 12:04pm · Edited · Ok... for those of you that have not yet read my book, I have decided to give you a taste of a bit of content. Here is an excerpt from pages 43-45 of the chapter titled "What the Family Thought of Brushy." This excerpt primarily consists of a letter written in 1986 by my Uncle Paul Emerson to William A. Tunstill who penned the book "Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same" published in 1988. (pictured are my mother, Eulaine Haws, and my uncle, Paul Emerson. Dear Mr. Tunstill:
I have read your letters and the articles you have sent my sister, Eulaine Haws, about Oliver (Brushy Bill) Roberts, who said he was Billy the Kid. You have certainly done a lot of research and worked hard and I find it very interesting and fascinating to say the least. I remember meeting Oliver Roberts, who was my grandmother's brother, not too long before my grandmother died. She was Martha Vada Roberts Heath and was my mother's mother. Oliver came to see her in Jacksonville, Texas, and I met him. He was a very "dikey" little man that paraded around in western clothes and cowboy boots, and said he was Billy the Kid. I wish I would have listened more carefully to what he had to say, spent more time in his presence, and got him to tell me some of his stories; but I was young and too busy, I guess. To be honest, my grandmother did not believe he was Billy the Kid and did not have confidence in what he said. She thought it was in the imagination of his mind. I do not personally know. I am enclosing a copy of the newspaper clipping about his death that I found in my mother's papers after her death. On the back is a note written by my aunt Cora Heath, Martha Roberts Heath's second oldest daughter. She said: "O. L. Roberts was my mother's brother. He was around 75 years of age when he died and he was not Billy the Kid." I feel sure she expressed the sentiment of my grandmother about the subject. If Oliver was really her cousin and not her brother as the theory goes, she did not know it, or ever tell it to any of the children. I lived next door to my grandmother for a number of years in her older days, and her mind was very sharp until the day of her death. She was a person that talked about her family and her children to everyone sparing nothing, but I never remember hearing her say or express at any time that Oliver was not her brother. She just discounted what he said as a "state of mind." I called and talked to Uncle Tom Roberts' daughter, Geneva Pittmon of Canton, Texas tonight. There are several direct nieces and nephews of Oliver Roberts still living which would be a generation closer than my sister Eulaine and I. Geneva told me that a couple of years ago, a reporter from the Dallas News came down and took pictures, interviewed them and ran a big article in the papers about it. She remembered your name but just what connection or contact with you she had, she did not say. Mr. Tunstill, I do not wish to deflate any effort on your part to prove that Oliver (Ollie) (Brushy Bill) Roberts was Billy the Kid, but she said emphatically, without doubt or question, maybe, or don't know ... that it was not so! She says they have documents, papers, etc., to prove it is not so. She says that Oliver lived with her family a number of years throughout her life as a girl growing up. She remembers him quite well, has pictures of him, and knows very much about him. So, in light of the fact that Uncle Tom Roberts' children knew him, it would be good and better to contact them for most all the information you need. They have the family records. I suppose the Bible and pictures, etc., of him. I wish I could be of more help, but I only saw him once and know very little about him. I have three sons and they would like very much for him to be the real genuine Billy the Kid. It really does not matter to me either way, but I would want, as I am sure you want, only the truth known. I wouldn't want to claim something that was not true. If I remember correctly, Billy the Kid was supposedly killed in 1881, but Oliver was only two years old at the time, being born in 1879. How can you reconcile the big age difference, and when did he switch persons. Tom was younger than Oliver and, of course knew his brother. When Oliver would be gone for a time or get sick, he would always call his brother Tom to come, and Tom would go and see about him, Geneva said. I am sure Tom would have known if it was not his own brother. Well, whatever, but just please do contact her and other members of her family that knew and remembered Oliver quite well. They can fill you in on a lot of fact. Ok? With best personal regards from us, and a prayer that God will bless you, I am, Sincerely yours, Paul Emerson, grandson of Martha Vada Roberts Heath As I understood my half uncle, Paul Emerson, and my mother, Eulaine Haws, no one in our family truly initially believed Brushy (Oliver Pleasant Roberts) was Billy the Kid. Unfortunately, my mother was convinced otherwise after provided fabricated genealogy by Mr. Tunstill. My family knew Brushy was the nickname Oliver used through much of his life. Substantial time was spent with him by various family members throughout his life. As we know, it is not uncommon for a family to have a relative with a creative imagination telling tall tales filled with fantastical exaggeration. I believe our family just thought my maternal half great-granduncle, Brushy (Oliver Pleasant Roberts), was an entertaining storyteller. Without the aid of creative authors, I believe Brushy's stories would have remained as little more than family footnotes. Although information from my family in regard to Brushy should have been sufficient enough to dispel anyone's belief he was Billy the Kid, Mr. Tunstill continued to plow on in his attempt to prove his impossible theory. This required genealogical fabrications, pseudo-history, false witness testimonials, and intentional exclusion of obvious falsehoods in Brushy's tall tale. It appears Brushy concocted his Billy the Kid myth before leaving Gladewater, Texas in about 1942. After relocating to Hamilton County, Texas, living in either Hamilton, Texas or Hico, Texas during the remainder of his life, it appears he would readily tell of his imagined escapades to anyone who would listen. Still not convinced Brushy was just a colorful storyteller? The next chapter will provide some insight into what local residents thought of Brushy and his fables. While reading, please keep in mind Brushy professed he hadn't told anyone he was Billy the Kid prior to his interviews with Morrison in 1949.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jan 6, 2015 18:06:20 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that excerpt. As I mentioned above, I have ordered your book and I look forward to reading it. Actually, I'd like to hold off on debating any of the above until I've read the book. There may be something there that would convince me to reconsider my opinion about Brushy. If there is, any debate on what you've already shared would be moot. But I will give you a "preview" of my opinion about the above. Just a few quick points. Geneva Pittmon wasn't even born when Brushy stepped into the identity of Oliver Roberts, so she could easily have been wrong about him. Maybe Tom Roberts "did" know Brushy was actually Billy The Kid but chose not to tell anyone for whatever reasons. One more point. I don't see how your mother could have been convinced by Tunstill, even temporarily, with the use of fictitious family tree information if it was such common knowledge in the family that Brushy was lying. With that said, I'd really like to wait and read your book to form an overall opinion on it's message before delving deeper into the minutia of it all.
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