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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 25, 2014 13:09:37 GMT -5
Morrison never claimed to be an attorney. So says Leon Metz based on an interview with Morrison himself. Here are a couple of excerpts from a letter written by Metz himself that explains that and also addresses the issue of Morrison's sincerity. Evidence that Morrison did not first hear about Brushy from J. Frank Dalton. Excerpts from a letter written by Morrison to Ola Everhardt. See the next post for more on this.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 25, 2014 13:18:50 GMT -5
Further evidence that Morrison did indeed first hear about Brushy from Joseph Hines (or whatever his real name was). Joseph Hines was not J. Frank Dalton. Brett Hall says in his book that upon examining Morrison's papers and such he saw Morrison's admission that Hines was actually William Campbell and that he had called him Hines in his book at Campbell's request in order to protect him from legal ramifications. I believe the whole Jesse Evans thing was to lend credence to Campbell's information. After all if his real name was Hines how would he know who Billy The Kid was. Yes, there was some deception going on there, but it was to protect Campbell, not to try and prove a statement from him about Billy that was untrue.
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Post by MissyS on Jun 25, 2014 13:48:10 GMT -5
Hey Wayne, I hope you don't mind me posting, there's a really interesting conversation going on on this thread, I was wondering about the photo of Brushy at 14 , do you know if Brushy himself said he was 14 when it was taken or was he guessing? , to me it can look to be younger, I thought a long time when I first saw that photo that it was Brushy's boyhood photo of maybe 10? , I was also wondering about BTK 's age was he really 21 yrs old when Garrett supposedly shot him? I'v read accounts where persons believed that he was younger? How did his age become definite? There was said there was no birth record of Billy and there was speculation to where he was born and his real name, after Garrett's book it seems writers are going by what was written in it even thou alot of people said it was alot of lies. When Brushy told his birthdate was he going by what the history said? Did he really know?, did he say that date because its written in a family bible that could be wrong? The reason Im asking is that I don't think Brushy can ever be proven to be or not to be BTK if we don't have a definite proven age for both, seriously I always went with the assumption all the books about BTK about his age had to be true because most said the same thing but we have to think of the source were these writers going to the same source? Garrett's word or newspapers? We know the Lincoln County War started in Feb 1879 and Lasted five months or so? knowing that we can figure Billy being in his late teens? old enough to be deputized etc., It was also said he looked younger than his age, he had boyish looks anyway, I read that Paulita Maxwell was 15 yrs old at the time if that's true would a 21 yr old court a 15 yr old girl at the time? was this the norm for Mexican families in the 1800's to court at 15 to a man older? These are questions that puzzle me because the age of Brushy / Billy should really be defined.
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Post by sherlockholmes on Jun 25, 2014 14:05:45 GMT -5
Wayne , i noticed that you go to the part of the Hico story just before it says this: "THUS BEGAN 1 OF THE GREAT MYSTERIES...That means when it was 1st known, no debate, end of story. Despite what you say it is a CLEAR INDICATION that is when it was 1st known(even if it is the wrong info). If, under your story theory a mistake was made(an honest mistake(s)), then why are the year wrong,the 1st indication reference, as well as the name misspelled!!! I will give you 1, but not all. That fake photo doesn't even mildly resemble any people i have ever seen from that era and I accept nothing from it, until you can prove otherwise. Wayne, you have Mr. Heffner post on here corroborating what you have written is a fact and i will apologize to you(all of these mistakes must be accounted for by him). Why do I get the feeling that if I researched Martile Able in 1949 or before that he would show up as a man, had a sex change in early 1950 and became Mardle Ables, but used these aliases because his name was Jessie M.James, and he was tired of being confused as Jessie W. James, since many people were dyslexic back then(undiagnosed), people were constantly turning the M.(for Martile), upside down into a W.(for Woodson), and Jessie got so mad he changed his name to Martile Able, but he was still harassed, and so he decided to have a sex-change operation, at this point as Mardle Ables was Able(pun intended) to live her life in peace? Now, doesn't that all make sense in a clear and cogent (rational) way? That story follows the Exact same line as Morrisons'. Wayne, I give you the copyright on this info. This whole story might even be partially believable, if not for the further enhancing of an already unbelievable story. A similar story would be a reporter adding false information to a Real-Life UFO story , because the mere fact of finding a UFO would not be sensational enough on its' own. How ridiculous is that? It is as ridiculous as the facts of this entire story. Wayne , You better believe the Ables(woman)=Able(man)=James(man) story because I have the Tapes from Morrison(although I will never produce them, just like Brushy's Authors) to prove it. Jessie Evans=Joe Hines=William Campbell=Jessie James clearly states it on one of the tapes. In fact evans=hines=campbell= james is actually related to Able(s), but was so embarrassed that he wished to stay anonymous and that is why I first posted that J. Frank Dalton had told me the story. I hope that answers all of your questions. See how everything works itself out when you just use common sense. I apologize to you Wayne, I do now understand why people believe the Morrison story. It is just as clear as the story I took from the unheard Morrison Interviews.
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Post by sherlockholmes on Jun 25, 2014 14:14:55 GMT -5
MissyS, thanks for posting. This is 1 time I am certain Wayne and I can agree. Wayne, seriously, I know that it was Morrison who was trying to prove Brushy was BTK, but I would be more sympathetic to Morrison if even 1 other independent person (of some standing) were involved in the proving. As you can tell in my last post it is just too easy to make things up. GOOD DAY Wayne & thank you for letting me post
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 25, 2014 14:23:06 GMT -5
I can't take your posts seriously when you start talking about someone having a sex change operation in the 1940's. Please!!
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Post by MissyS on Jun 25, 2014 15:42:44 GMT -5
Wayne I'v never seen that photo of Billy with the fiddle, have you ever compared it to Brushy?
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 25, 2014 17:07:41 GMT -5
Actually, yes, I have. The problem is that by the time you blow it up big enough to mean anything the resolution just isn't enough to make any kind of conclusion. At least in my opinion. The basic dimensions are a close enough match as far as I can tell but it's really not a very valuable comparison.
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Post by Rollie Taylor on Dec 18, 2014 22:03:07 GMT -5
BRUSHY BILL ROBERTS TIMELINE
Brushy Bill Roberts (Ollie L, Roberts) was Oliver Pleasant Roberts who claimed to be Billy the Kid Oliver Pleasant Roberts was only 3 years old when Sheriff Pat Garrett killed Billy the Kid, and Ollie was obviously not Billy the Kid. Born 26 August 1878 (WWI Draft Registration Card, signature Oliver Pleasant Roberts). 1880 AR census, Sebastian Co. Olover Roberts, age 1, in the household of his parents, Henry and Elizabeth Roberts. 1900 TX census, Hopkins Co. Oliver P. Roberts, 20, born August 1879, is single and lives in the household of his parents, Henry O. and Sarah E. Roberts. (Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts are buried in the Hillcrest Cemery, Canton, Van Zandt County, Texas) 1909, Van Zandt Co, TX. O. P. Roberts married Anna Lee 11 July 1909 1910 TX census, Van Zandt Co. Oliver P. Roberts and Anna have been married less than a year and have no children. 1910, Van Zandt Co, TX, Oliver Roberts divorced Anna 10 November 1910. (Anna Lee married Jessie Lecil Barnes 26 Jan 1913 in Van Zandt County) 1912, Van Zandt Co, TX. Oliver P. Roberts married Mollie Brown 21 August 1912. 1918. Oliver Pleasant Roberts registered for the draft 12 September 1918 and listed Mollie Roberts of Arkinda, AR, as his nearest relative. 1919, Little River Co, AR. Oliver Roberts buried Mollie Brown Roberts in Pauley Cemetery, Cerra Gordo, in February 1919. 1920 TX census, Van Zandt Co. Oliver P. Roberts, 40, is a widower boarding in the household of James C. and Allie Murff. Oliver later married Allie Isaac Murff's mother Lutecia Ballard, widow of Abraham Isaac. 1930 TX census, Van Zandt Co. Oliver Roberts, 52, and Lutisha, 57, live alone. 1940 TX census, Gregg Co. Ollie Roberts 70, and Louticia, 65, have lived in Gregg County for at least 5 years. 1944, Van Zandt Co, TX. Oliver Roberts buried Louticia Ballard Isaac in the Starr Cemetery in June. 1945, Hamilton Co, TX. Oliver Roberts married Malinda Elizabeth Murrell, widow of James Thomas Allison. 1949, Hamilton Co, TX. Ollie Roberts tells William V. Morrison that he is Billy the Kid 1949, Lincoln Co, NM Ollie Roberts and William V. Morrison go to New Mexico to verify Ollie's claim 1949, Meramec Caverns, Missouri. Ollie Roberts and Ola Everhard went to Meramec Caverns for J. Frank Dalton's birthday. 1950, New York, New York. Ollie Roberts traveled to New York City with J. Frank Dalton as a witness to support J. Frank Dalton's claim that he was Jesse Woodson James 1950 Santa Fe, NM Ollie Roberts and William V. Morrison meet with Gov. Thomas J. Mabry 29 November 1950 Ollie Roberts died 27 December 1950 in Hico, Hamilton County, Texas 1950 Malinda E. Roberts signed the death certificate as informant.
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Post by RWT on Dec 18, 2014 23:23:25 GMT -5
Wayne, Start with the fact that Ollie L. Roberts died in Hico in 1950. Go back, step by step up the timeline. Unbiased information was recorded at the time, although errors could have been made, and frequently were made, by the enumerator when he visited the household and took notes, or when he transcribed the notes onto the census sheet.
Having read thousands of census records, the most common errors are age and misspelled names, followed by place of birth. Even the gender of an individual has been incorrect on a few records. Just like evidence in a trial, it is the preponderance of the evidence that determines the outcome.
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Post by RWT on Dec 19, 2014 13:55:33 GMT -5
Another statement from the letter reads "The Jesse James claimant identified as J. Frank Dalton in this photograph was proven not to be the real Jesse James in a 1995 exhumation and DNA test." Well, I'm not saying he was, or was not Jesse. But the absolute fact is, there was no "proof" one way or the other. In fact, they were determined to come up with something that would prove Dalton to be a fraud. So determined, in fact, that they used a tooth that didn't even come from the alleged Jesse gravesite to secure DNA. The tooth came from the James family farm. Duh??? Can we spell obvious? J. Frank Dalton applied for and received a pension from the State of Texas in 1947 for his alleged service with Quantrill's guerrillas. Previously Dalton had contributed articles to "The Crittenden Memoirs", by Henry Huston Crittenden. "The Crittenden Memoirs" was about the administration of this father, Governor Thomas T. Crittenden of Missouri. Quoting from Dalton's letter: "Bill Anderson (supposed to be killed in Ray Co., Mo., during the war) died about six years ago in Brown Co., Texas, where he had a small ranch, and had been living since shortly after the war." Crittenden Memoirs, p. 372 The truth: This letter from J. Frank Dalton, dated March 6th, 1935, reveals J. Frank Dalton for the fraud that he is. Bill Anderson of Brown County, Texas, was my maternal grandmother's uncle, William Columbus Anderson, who was born in Cole County, Missouri, and lived in Stone County, Missouri, before coming to Texas in 1863. In 1924, a small town reporter interviewed the 84 year old Bill Anderson and wrote several sensational articles describing how Bill anticipated the ambush of Major Cox, loaned his horse to another guerrilla, and left for Texas. Dalton, in his pension application claimed that he had served under Captain William Anderson until the end of the war, and had not been transferred from one command to another. William T. Anderson was killed 26 October 1864 in Ray County, Missouri and JFD would have known that if he had served under Bloody Bill.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 19, 2014 17:43:17 GMT -5
Wayne, Start with the fact that Ollie L. Roberts died in Hico in 1950. Go back, step by step up the timeline. Ollie L. Roberts didn't die in Hico in 1950. The man who died was William Henry Roberts born in 1859. He was only pretending to be Ollie L. Roberts. While we're at it, if you're so certain the man who died in Hico in 1950 was Ollie L. Roberts or Oliver P. Roberts, explain to me why his death certificate and original tombstone said he was born in 1868.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 19, 2014 17:47:34 GMT -5
I do not claim J. Frank Dalton was the real Jesse James. I can tell you contrary to the assumption most make, the exhumation didn't prove otherwise. And I don't think any possible mistakes he made regarding Anderson prove anything either. But most importantly, I do believe that even if he was not the real Jesse James, Brushy either believed he was, mistakenly, or lied to support his claim for some other reason. I do not believe the truth about J. Frank Dalton proves anything about Brushy one way or the other.
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Post by RWT on Dec 19, 2014 21:19:06 GMT -5
I agree that the truth about J. Frank Dalton has nothing to do with Brushy Bill. We hold different opinions about Brushy Bill. I would be very interested in the records which convinced you that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Thanks, RWT
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 20, 2014 14:04:58 GMT -5
Not sure, but I suspect you refer to records of the document type, census, etc. There are those including the fact that in the 1910 census Brushy claimed his parents were born in Kentucky, etc. But the "record" that means the most to me is the photographic record. Brushy's facial dimensions are "almost" exactly the same as the famous BTK tintype. Other, more obscure items mean a great deal to me as well. The conversation in Spanish between Brushy and Josephine Sanchez and the instance that happened as Morrison and Brushy were driving toward Lincoln. Brushy predicted a certain cave where he and his pals hid out at times would appear soon and sure enough it did. I believe I located that cave in my own visit to the area in 2006. Eyewitness identifications from Martile Able and Severo Gallegos among others mean a great deal as well.
Then of the non-record type, I conclude Brushy was telling the truth partially because of logic. Partially because the story of his death told by Garrett makes no sense. And on, and on, and on.
Documents certainly do matter, but the truth doesn't always live there alone if at all.
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