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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 4, 2015 13:15:41 GMT -5
OK. I've said this often before but I'll say it again. I believe Brushy lied a lot. An awful lot. But that doesn't prove he was not Billy The Kid. It certainly does cast doubt but it doesn't prove he was not the Kid. If there weren't so many reasons to believe he "was" the Kid then all those lies would convince me he was not. But they don't.
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 4, 2015 18:17:27 GMT -5
Land, Here's the deal. I will list the reasons why I am convinced Brushy Bill was just plain old Oliver Pleasant Roberts, son of H. O. Roberts. Perhaps you can find some reason why you are convinced Brushy Bill was William Henry Roberts.
1. There is no PROOF that Billy the Kid was alive after 1881. 2. There are census records of Olovor/Oliver P./O.P./Ollie in the household of his parents or wife from 1880 to 1940. Discrepancy of birthplaces in census records is acknowledged. 2. There is no PROOF that O. P., the son of H. O. Roberts, disappeared after the 1900 census, or at any other time prior to his death 27 December 1950. 4. Birth year of Oliver P. Roberts in 1880, 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930 census as calculated from reported age is consistently about 1879. 5. Letter dated 16 December 1987 written by his niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon, correctly identifying Oliver P. Roberts parents as H. O. Roberts and Sara Elizabeth Ferguson and Oliver's date of birth as 26 August 1879. 6. Oliver Pleasant Roberts registered for the WWI draft in Little River County, Arkansas, in 1918, gave his date of birth as 26 August 1878, and listed Mollie as his next of kin. He had married Mollie Brown in Van Zandt County in August 1912. 7. The parents and grandfather claimed by Brushy Bill are not supported by census records or anything other than Brushy Bill's word. 8. The birthplace claimed by Brushy Bill is highly improbable. Taylor County was on the frontier in 1859 and subject to Indian raids. 9. Brushy Bill claimed that in 1892 he assumed the identity of his cousin, Ollie Roberts, who had been killed in a horse theft incident. Over 340 members (including spouses) of the extended family of Oliver Pleasant Roberts have been identified. Brushy Bill had no cousin, Ollie. The forgetful old man must have been thinking of his nephew, Ollie Roberts, son of Andrew Berry Roberts. But that won't work either, for Andrew's son Ollie was born in 1913.
The entire Brushy Bill story, which lacks documented records and primary sources, is based on the book, notes, and tapes of William V. Morrison, presumably as related by Brushy Bill, and supplemented with abundant hearsay, questionable photo matching analyses, and dubious affidavits of alleged witnesses. The many timeline discrepancies are dismissed as the faulty memory of an old man, and endless "wouldn't it be possible" explanations.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 4, 2015 19:24:16 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure you're already aware of most of the reasons I believe Brushy was Billy The Kid but I'm going to list them here for you anyway. I might forget a few but I'll try to be as complete as I can. Some of it is paraphrased from the website "Outlaw Legend" hosted by Nick McCarty, to save time typing.
Brushy knew that Colonel Dudley's soldiers that entered Lincoln on July 19, 1878 were black, he knew all the details of how the Kid had to pay his lawyer for his services in his trial, he knew that Billy the Kid wrote a letter to Gov. Wallace proclaiming his innocence in the murder of James Carlyle, and he knew exactly how the McSween house was set up before it was burned. He knew the layout of the courthouse in Lincoln at the time of the Kid's escape. He had a very old scarf that he claimed to have gotten from Deluvina Maxwell after he was captured at Stinking Springs and brought to Fort Sumner. He said he gave Deluvina the tintype of himself and she gave him the scarf. This really did happen, but only posse member Jim East knew of it and he only spoke of it in a letter he wrote to fellow lawman Charlie Siringo. Brushy said that when he went to trial, his first indictment was for the murder of Buckshot Roberts and he was represented by Ira Leonard. He also said that Leonard was able to get the case thrown out. This is true, but very, very few researchers knew of this back during the time Brushy made his claim. Severo Gallegos, Jose Montoya, and Martile Able, all surviving friends of Billy the Kid, met with Brushy Bill separately. Brushy talked with them all about events from his past as Billy the Kid and all three signed affidavits attesting to the fact that Billy the Kid and Brushy Bill were one and the same. Bill and Sam Jones, also surviving friends of Billy the Kid, also met with Brushy Bill. Although they did not sign affidavits in support of Brushy, due to the fact that they wanted to avoid any publicity that would bring, they did tell Morrison they believe him to be the Kid. Jessie Evans, or Joe Hines as he was later known, confirmed to Morrison that Brushy Bill was the Kid. Bob Young, a native of Round Rock, Texas, visited Hamilton, Texas in 1930 and first met Brushy Bill. The two became friends and Brushy informed Young that he would like to accompany him on his return to Round Rock. When the time came for Young to return home, Brushy regretfully said he couldn’t accompany him, since his wife was sick. Still, Brushy asked Young to look up an old friend of his, Jimmy McDaniels (a former member of the Jessie Evans Gang and veteran of the Lincoln County War), who also lived in Round Rock. Brushy went on to tell Young that when he found McDaniels, to simply tell him ‘’the Kid says hello.’’ When Young returned to Round Rock, he met with McDaniels and delivered Brushy’s message. Upon hearing this, the old man looked as if he had been badly frightened. One day in the 1940s, Brushy was walking down a street in Hico. Also walking down the street was a five year old boy and his mother. When the boy ran into the street and was almost hit by a car, the mother yelled out her son's name, Billy, loudly. Witnesses said that Brushy whirled around and reached for an imaginary pistol. After Brushy realized his name wasn't being called, he hurried away. One day in 1945, Brushy was walking down a Hico street. An old lawman named Henry Anthony and his sons were also on the street and when Anthony saw Brushy, he jumped up and yelled at Brushy, calling him Billy Bonney, and told him to throw up his hands. When his sons calmed him down, Anthony said that Brushy was the Kid. He swore for the rest of his life that Brushy was the Kid. In 1990, the famous tintype of Billy the Kid, a purported photo of the Kid at age 12, a photo of Brushy at age 14, and a photo of Brushy at age 90 were analyzed in the Acton-Bovik photo study. The study used the most advanced photo comparison equipment around as well as the best scientists. The photo purported to be a 12 year old Billy the Kid was determined to not be him. The photo of 14 year old Brushy was close match to the tintype. The photo of Brushy at age 90 had a 93% match to the famous tintype. The missing seven percent can be explained due to age and dental work, so said Dr. Bovik and Dr. Acton. Brushy Bill had scars from knife and gun wounds that Oliver P. Roberts would not have had. In 2006 I visited the drug store in Hico where Brushy use to get his prescriptions filled. The druggist's father owned the store before him and this son told me how his father believed Brushy was Billy because he had seen the scars and had seen how Brushy could escape handcuffs.
According to Ruidoso resident, Jim Tully, “Brushy Bill was taken to the home of Severo Gallegos and it so happened that Severo was gone to the grocery store to replenish his supply of tobacco. Now Severo’s next door neighbor was one Josephine Randolf Sanches, granddaughter of Frank Randolf who lived in San Patricio when Billy the Kid was there. In fact, Frank and Billy dated two girls together. Josephine, whom I knew real well told me about this incident. She says that I’ll just find out for myself if this man is really Billy the Kid. So she says to Billy the Kid, or rather Brushy Bill: ”Who was your sweetheart in San Patricio?“ “With no hesitation whatsoever, Brushy Bill replies: ”A Sedillios girl across the river.“ That was Billy’s sweetheart alright, and who but Billy the Kid could recall that fact? Frank Randolf, a member of the California Column, and grandparent of Josephine, raised her there in San Patricio and had told her about his friendship with Billy the Kid. And they put out the flap that Brushy Bill could not talk any Spanish whatsoever. Well, Josephine conversed with him in Spanish and another Hispanic I knew in Lincoln said that he rattled off Spanish like a native.”
Furthermore, why would an old man like Brushy make such a claim when he knew it could put him in jail for murder? Why did he tear up when he and Morrison visited the Lincoln Courthouse. He knew about the location of a cave outside Lincoln that he could not have known about unless he'd been there.
I believe he was Billy because I believe Martile Abel and Jose Montoya and Severo Gallegos who all identified him. Regardless of the alleged computer comparisons done by the experts, I believe my own computer comparisons of his face, stature, posture and hands with those of the one authenticated Tintype of Billy. I believe the lady I spoke to in Hico that said he always walked with one hand held like he was about to draw a pistol and his wife walked behind him like she was keeping an eye on his back for him.
Well, that's enough for now. I know you don't agree with any of that. But then, that's why we're debating it in the first place. Isn't it?
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 5, 2015 13:56:17 GMT -5
The following is taken from a new page I just added to my website. For a more complete reading, visit: musicpla9.wix.com/searchingforthekid Under "Evidence" choose "Documents". A good investigator looks for the "tells" in the evidence. Those are the items that stand out as being different from the norm or different from what one would expect to find. There are a couple of "tells" in the census records that many historians overlook. First, notice that Oliver was reported as born in Arkansas up until the 1910 census and from that point on he was reported born in Texas, that is except for his draft registration where he again states he was born in Arkansas, which also happens to be the one listing here, after 1900 that includes the middle name Pleasant or the initial "P". I still believe when he signed that draft registration, the info was being given by Henry O., the father of Oliver P. Roberts who had agreed to let Brushy register under his son's name. Also, what changed in or just before 1910? Even more important though, notice that in 1910 and "only" in 1910 his parents are reported to have both been born in Kentucky. Was that an error of some kind? One might assume so until we read Brushy's comments to William Morrison in 1950 in which he claims his parents were both born in Kentucky. Note that in the 40 years between 1910 and 1950, Brushy was claiming his parents were born in Texas and Arkansas. Why make up a lie about Kentucky all the way back in 1910 and then repeat the same lie to Morrison in 1950? It is quite obvious he made this statement intentionally in 1910 and then again in 1950 and that it was not an error on the part of the census taker. Here's another "tell". If you believe, as I do, that the census records reflect exactly what was reported, then the following discrepancies present themselves. Let's do the math by subtracting his reported age from the year the census was taken. Remember, as shown above, all the censuses were recorded no later than June of that year so whether you believe he was born in August, or December, he had not yet reached his birthday that year. 1880 census - born in 1878 1900 census - born in 1879 1910 census - born in 1879 draft card - born in 1878 1920 census - born in 1878 1930 census - born in 1877 1940 census - born in 1869 death certificate - born in 1868 Why so many discrepancies? These dates vary by two years and more. Maybe Brushy didn't know the exact year Oliver P. was born. Could that be due to the fact he really was not Oliver P. Roberts? I think so.
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 6, 2015 13:03:04 GMT -5
Land,
Glad to see you are interested in information recorded at the time, rather than hearsay 70 years after Billy the Kid's death.
"Here's another "tell". If you believe, as I do, that the census records reflect exactly what was reported, then the following discrepancies present themselves. Let's do the math by subtracting his reported age from the year the census was taken. Remember, as shown above, all the censuses were recorded no later than June of that year so whether you believe he was born in August, or December, he had not yet reached his birthday that year. O. P. Roberts Loutecia Ballard Isaac Roberts 1880 census - born in 1878 born in 1876 1900 census - born in 1879 born June 1876 1910 census - born in 1879 born in 1877 draft card - born in 1878 1920 census - born in 1878 born in 1877 1930 census - born in 1877 born in 1873 1940 census - born in 1869 born in 1875 death certificate - born in 1868 born in July 1875
Why so many discrepancies? These dates vary by two years and more. Maybe Brushy didn't know the exact year Oliver P. was born. Could that be due to the fact he really was not Oliver P. Roberts? I think so."
" If you believe, as I do, that the census records reflect exactly what was reported, then the following discrepancies present themselves.?"
If you believe a birth year of 1879 +/- 1 is a discrepancy, you are an inexperienced genealogist. The 1868 and 1869 birth years are indeed discrepancies. Just look at Loutecia's changing age. What was she trying to hide?
I disagree with your assumption that census records always reflect exactly what was reported. Enumerators visited households and took notes. Notes were transcribed onto census pages when the enumerator returned home. That process had three opportunities for incorrect information to be recorded on census sheets: incorrect information provided by respondent; inaccurate recording of information by enumerator; and mistakes made as the enumerator transcribed notes onto census pages.
First, I must point out that Oliver Pleasant Roberts registered in Arkansas. Nowhere in the draft registration form is his place of birth recorded. Although he was born in Arkansas, that fact was not recorded on the WWI registration form as you erroneously stated.
H. O. and Sarah Roberts first 3 children: Andrew Berry Roberts (9 Feb 1877 - 12 May 1923) from Shooks Chapel Cemetery, Sulpher Springs, Hopkins Co, TX Mary Cordelia Roberts Adams (17 Apr 1878 - 19 Dec 1968) from headstone in Greenhill Cemetery, McClain Co, OK Oliver Pleasant Roberts (26 Aug 1879 - 27 Dec 1950)
The Roberts family Bible record cited by Geneva Pittmon had the correct birthdate for Oliver P. Roberts, 26 Aug 1879.
Here's another "tell" that should make the face of the most diehard Brushy Bill believer turn red.
"I believe he was Billy because I believe Martile Abel, etc."
To be accurate, you believe that Martile identified Billy the Kid because someone wrote that Martile had identified him. That is hearsay and not a fact.
That would be the same Martilia Billberry that was 8 years old in 1881, living in Lampasas County, Texas, who married John C. Ables in 1898 in Taylor County (Brushy Bill said he was born there) before John and Martile moved to El Paso about 1902, according to her obit? Now if Martile saw Billy the Kid in Texas and knew he was Billy the Kid, she was not yet 10 years old. But if William V. Morrison brought Brushy Bill to his home in El Paso in 1949 or 1950, and introduced him to Martile as Billy the Kid, why certainly, she would certainly identify the impostor as Billy the Kid. FAG #121263674
Dr. William Albert Tunstill, in his notes, says that Billy returned from Mexico in 1883, and spent 3 or 4 days with John C. and Martile Able of El Paso. Not possible. As I have pointed out, John C. Able and Martile were married in 1898. John C. Able did live in El Paso, probably from about 1902 until his death in 1918. FAG #134259789
Still waiting for just one single, credible, verifiable fact that supports your argument that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 6, 2015 13:37:36 GMT -5
Is it not accepted fact that John C. Ables knew Billy The Kid? Is it not a fact that Martile married John C. Ables? I believe Brushy visited them after they were wed and John introduced him to Martile as Billy The Kid. John would have known him. Martile had been introduced to another Billy claimant, I believe his name was Henry Smith. She denied he was Billy. Morrison said when he brought Brushy into Martile's home he asked him if "he" knew "her" and Brushy immediately responded "sure, that's John Abels' wife." They spoke at length about remembrances and she confirmed he looked like Billy, talked like Billy, laughed like Billy, had the same pocket knife he carried when she knew him as Billy", if I'm quoting correctly. I don't think she specifically said she had met him prior to 1898. I believe she did say he had visited the family's home prior to that. I think she meant the Ables' home, not that "she" was there at the time. The way I see it, she believed he was Billy because she had met him "after" 1898 and her husband knew he was Billy. Whether that's the way it actually happened or not, if "he" recognized "her" before he'd been told who she was, then I believe that is a "fact" that goes a long, long way to convincing he was the real Billy. Verifiable? Well, no. I never said I had found any "verifiable fact" that proves he was Billy, but I've already presented verifiable facts that "support" the argument. I'm not going to go back over them all again here, since you'd certainly continue to ignore their value. But is it not verifiable that in 1910, the census showed his parents were born in Kentucky? Is that not a fact? I believe it supports the argument. You don't. And so it goes. You see? Verifiable facts are not the problem. Differing interpretations of what those facts mean is where we disagree! I believe there are many facts that "support" his claim and you don't.
Have you read Edward Daniels' new book "Billy The Kid, An Autobiography"? Everyone who's interested in Brushy either way, should read it.
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 6, 2015 16:16:55 GMT -5
Land, Lord have mercy!! What a yarn you can spin. You must be a retired politician, or a retired joke writer for Bob Hope.
"I believe Brushy visited them after they were wed and John introduced him to Martile as Billy The Kid."
Of course there is no proof that a farmer masquerading as Brushy Bill, living in Van Zandt County or Little River County, ever met John Able, or had any logical reason to zip 250 miles (500 miles round trip) over to Taylor County to congratulate the newlyweds, or to make a 675 mile one way trip or a 1,350 mile round trip to El Paso from Canton. Ludicrous!!!
Your argument in support of Brushy's claim is riddled with "I believe", "I think", "If", and topped with "interpretation".
I suppose your interpretation of night and day might include this advice to NASA: "The astronauts should land on the sun at night when it is cooler."
I understand why you did not respond to Dr. Tunstill's note that Brushy Bill said he spent about 3 days with John and Martile in 1883 after he came back from Mexico. Couldn't happen. They did not marry until 1898. Just more of Brushy Bill's BS.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 6, 2015 23:31:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the compliments. Actually though, I don't have any plans of seeing astronauts land on the sun. And by the way, your sarcasm is not helpful.
My explanation of Martile Abel's comments are quite possibly correct. It could have happened that way. Instead of making fun of me, why don't you find some facts that prove me wrong? Maybe if we can just talk about the facts you can convince me I'm all wrong about Brushy? My purpose is not to "spin a yarn". My purpose is to point out why those who believe they know for a fact that Brushy was not Billy The Kid just might be wrong. If you don't examine things with an open mind about such possibilities as what I suggested regarding the Abels, then you just might be jumping to conclusions that are dead wrong.
I didn't respond to your point about Tunstill's note because frankly, I don't think it matters much. If that date is one Brushy actually gave to Tunstill, then it was another example of failed remembrance of dates. Or it was made up. Does that mean he never visited the Abels? Absolutely not. To be honest with you for a moment, I have to say I get really tired of all those folks like yourself who insist that every discrepancy in Brushy's story means he was not Billy. Wyatt Earp also told some tall tales but no one thinks it proves he wasn't really Wyatt Earp? Heck, it may even be that Brushy did visit John Abels in 1883 and his comments were misconstrued to suggest he saw Martile at that time as well. It may be that Tunstill improvised that and Brushy never said it at all. I don't put a whole lot of stock in what Tunstill wrote and in fact I've never read his book. Others have suggested he did improvise part of it.
"Of course there is no proof that a farmer masquerading as Brushy Bill, living in Van Zandt County or Little River County, ever met John Able, or had any logical reason to zip 250 miles (500 miles round trip) over to Taylor County to congratulate the newlyweds, or to make a 675 mile one way trip or a 1,350 mile round trip to El Paso from Canton. Ludicrous!!!"
Who said a farmer masquerading as Brushy Bill went to visit the Abels in El Paso? I didn't say that. If your going to base everything you say and believe on Brushy not being Billy then your logic is pretty good, but I believe he was Billy and I believe he could have been in El Paso without traveling there from Canton. I suppose I never was in El Paso either, since I'm now all the way up in eastern Washington. Must have been my ridiculous imagination acting up again.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 7, 2015 14:39:58 GMT -5
I think I need to add a few more comments regarding the last few posts. I fully understand and accept the idea that Brushy was a liar about many things. So many things it makes it quite a bit more difficult to trust that he was the Kid. However, in spite of all his lies and exaggerations there are reasons to believe he was Billy and I find those reasons to be compelling. I believe Billy was not killed by Garrett in 1881 therefore I believe Martile Abels when she says she met Billy. Even if she got the specifics confused or was misquoted. Before I am willing to call someone a liar, Martile included, I need more evidence against her than what we have. I believe Severo Gallegos' identification of Brushy as Billy. The fact that he didn't immediately say so makes his statement all the more relevant. I believe there are far too many similarities in Brushy's physique and facial measurements to be chalked up to coincidence and I do not believe the real 70 year old Oliver P. Roberts would have had all the scars Brushy had or would have made the claim of being a convicted killer with a death sentence hanging over him. I do not believe the real Oliver P. Roberts would have hesitated so, even to the point of becoming emotionally upset, before agreeing to enter the courthouse in Lincoln. And even if he initially read much of his knowledge of Billy and the Lincoln County war prior to the interviews with Morrison, I do not believe a 70 year old Oliver P. Roberts would have been able to speak about all that "off the cuff" you might say, as readily as Brushy did.
These may be considered by some to be rationalizations to support what I would tend to believe. But I do not believe they are irrational. I don't accept that these are manifestations of an out of control imagination. I believe them to be fair and reasonable ideas. If there's anyone reading this that wants to respond by insulting my intelligence or rationality, then I would appreciate hearing from you "only" if you can respond in a respectful manner. As I intend to always be respectful to others. I will again promise you here that I will never ban anyone from participation in this forum. However, as I've warned before, insults and belittling comments will not be tolerated forever. My response might very well be to delete the offending post. Not so much for myself. I can take it. But because it discourages other members from stating what they believe. A message board that allows bickering to go unabated will eventually become a ghost town and I don't intend to allow that to happen here. I'm just reminding everyone.
Thank you in advance.
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 7, 2015 16:38:52 GMT -5
Land, There are two versions of Brushy Bill's life.
The "tell" version is a documented record of the life of Oliver Pleasant Roberts, from his birth until his death, including his four wives. The census, marriage, WWI draft registration, land, death, and cemetery records tell a story of his life; an outline of his biography, and each event was recorded at the time. Birth date, and family group of Brushy Bill, in these records is confirmed by relatives of Oliver Pleasant Roberts. There are a few discrepancies in the census and death records. Birthplaces and ages are not consistent.
********************* The "no tell" is the other version of the life of Brushy Bill which is completely based on stories Brushy told William V. Morrison about his life as Billy the Kid. Brushy Bill's stories about his life prior to, and after, the Lincoln County war, lack any credible records to support his phenomenal claims: his parents, his birth place, his childhood, his ranch in Mexico, his work in Mexico for the Yaqui Indians, his service as a deputy marshall under Judge Isaac Parker, his service as a Texas ranger, his job as a scout for the stage coach lines in the Dakotas; his employment by Pinkerton; his trip to Argentina; his service in Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders in Cuba; his participation in Buffalo Bill's show; his participation in Pawnee Bill's show; his own show in Texas, etc.
In the total absence of credible records to support any of Brushy Bill's claims, Morrison solicited affidavits from anyone who would attest that they believed Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Billy the Kid was killed in 1881. Beginning in 1949, Morrison searched for witnesses who could identify someone they had not seen in at least 68 years. Did Morrison have to coach Severo Gallegos before he would provide an affidavit?
This version of Brushy Bill's life is not believable for many reasons. There is no evidence that Billy the Kid survived after 1881; that Pat Garrett mistakenly killed Billy Barlow; that Billy Barlow was ever in Lincoln; that Oliver Pleasant Roberts, the son of H. O. Roberts, disappeared; that Brushy Bill assumed the identity of Oliver P. Roberts, or that any of his stories were true.
Without credible records, only scars, handwriting comparisons, facial characteristic comparisons, hearsay, and speculation have been used as possible proof that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
Brushy Bill was not Billy the Kid regardless of several books and two Texas museums that proclaim he was.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 7, 2015 18:51:03 GMT -5
Thanks for a very well written synapsis Yosemite. You present a very logical case against Brushy's claim that on the surface seems indisputable. But you still don't explain why a 70 year old Oliver P. Roberts would just happen to be the same physical size with the same sloping right shoulder, the same hand structure, large wrists, scars, and eye color, be able to convince several eyewitnesses and willingly subject himself to a potential death sentence by claiming to be Billy The Kid. You don't explain why he got so emotional about visiting the Lincoln courthouse or how he was able to tell Josephine Sanches the name of the girl he dated in San Patricio. Or how he knew about the cave along the highway outside Lincoln. Or how he was able to rattle off details about the LCW that very few historians even knew back in 1950. I think these things matter a great deal, and you don't. I don't think either of us is going to convince the other to change our mind. But you're welcome to keep trying for as long as you like. I enjoy reading your posts as long as they are respectful like this last one. Thanks for that.
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 7, 2015 21:54:21 GMT -5
"Be very careful about believing everything written in books. "
Especially books by Morrison, Tunstill, & Jameson
Too bad you ignore your own excellent advice.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 8, 2015 12:11:13 GMT -5
I never said you should not believe "anything" you read in books. There's a huge difference between anything and everything, isn't there? It's almost as if you think you shouldn't believe "anything" you read in books. I know, you're going to say you shouldn't without verifiable facts. I say common sense and logic can be applied. That's where we differ really. We each have a different view of what is logical.
In other words, no, I don't believe "everything" I read in books. But I am willing to believe at least part of what I read by applying "my" idea of what is logical and makes sense. I have no desire to force or pressure anyone to agree with my assessments. But I will strongly defend my right to believe the things "I" think make sense.
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 8, 2015 12:37:24 GMT -5
Did you know?
J. Frank Dalton and Brushy Bill, standing, were photographed together about 1942, probably on the ranch of DeWitt Travis.
J. Frank Dalton came out of the closet as Jesse Woodson James 19 May 1948 in Lawton, OK. Brushy Bill came out of the closet as Billy the Kid in June 1949 in Hico, TX.
J. Frank Dalton claimed he was not killed by Bob Ford, but that is was Charlie Bigelow. Brushy Bill claimed that he was not killed by Pat Garrett, but that it was Billy Barlow.
J. Frank Dalton presumably lived over 65 years under a name other than his birth name. Brushy Bill presumably lived over 65 years under a name other than his birth name.
J. Frank Dalton changed his birth date from 8 March 1848 to 5 September 1847 after he claimed to be Jesse James. Brushy Bill changed his birth date from 6 August 1879 to 31 December 1868 and 31 December 1859 after he claimed to be Billy the Kid.
Promoters of J. Frank Dalton solicited affidavits attesting that he was Jesse Woodson James. Promoters of Brushy Bill solicited affidavits attesting that he was Billy the Kid.
DeWitt Travis signed an affidavit in support of J. Frank Dalton's claim that he had served with Quantrill's guerrillas during the Civil War. DeWitt Travis signed an affidavit that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
J. Frank Dalton tried to get a judge to "restore" his name to Jesse Woodson James. Brushy Bill tried to get the New Mexico governor to "pardon" him as Billy the Kid.
J. Frank Dalton claimed to have a ranch in Canada. Brushy Bill claimed to have a ranch in Mexico.
J. Frank Dalton claimed to have been a deputy marshal under Judge Isaac Parker. Brushy Bill claimed to have been a deputy marshall under Judge Isaac Parker.
J. Frank Dalton claimed to have been a Texas Ranger. Brushy Bill claimed to have been a Texas Ranger.
Frauds, like birds, flock together.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 8, 2015 17:10:10 GMT -5
Yes, I knew all that. Did you know Dalton was never proven to be a fraud? That tooth they extracted DNA from was not from Jesse's grave in the cemetery and probably not from the grave on the James farm.
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