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Post by RWT on Jan 23, 2015 16:33:18 GMT -5
Wayne, You have a superb imagination, maybe even superior to that of Brushy Bill. It was not easy to develop a convoluted hypothetical situation involving Lobato and Brushy.
Brushy Bill wins with this one though. "I was born at Buffalo Gap, December 31, 1859, the last hour of the last day of the year." Taylor County created in 1858, No 1860 federal census of Taylor County. Ranchers didn't venture into Taylor County until 1872. And on the frontier where Indians from the Llano Estacado passed through on their way to raid settlers in Brown County up until the late 1860s, the Roberts, with no newspapers, no radio, no telegraph, no watch, and no clock, told Brushy Bill that he was born on the last hour of the last day of 1859? I don't think so. But give Brushy Bill credit. His selection of a fake 31 December birthdate made it ever so easy to remember.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jan 23, 2015 17:17:59 GMT -5
Brushy probably made up the last hour of the last day thing. On the other hand, did they not have some way of keeping track of the date? Maybe a calendar? He may not have even known the true date he was born so he made up one he thought was unique. He might not have even been born in Buffalo Gap, although it is entirely possible he was. That doesn't make him "not" Billy The Kid. And doesn't explain how he knew to include Lobato in his escape from Ft. Sumner.
Since you wouldn't answer my previous question(s) I'll try a different one. Why did Silva say prior to Billy going over to Maxwell's the two of them were drinking beer outside underneath a tree, while Lobato said he was with Billy in Silva's home right up until the moment Billy went over to Maxwell's?
You introduced the Hull article with interviews with Silva and Lobato. I'm just following up on that, so don't say it doesn't matter. Use your common sense and tell me what you think. It seems the only lies you want to discuss are those you attribute to Brushy and that creates a slanted view. Tell me. Did Silva lie? Did Lobato lie? If not then why the discrepancies? If they did lie, then what were they trying to cover up?
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Post by RWT on Jan 23, 2015 21:15:25 GMT -5
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.
These are the facts:
A colorful character died in Hico, Texas, in 1950. He was known locally as Brushy Bill. For several years, he had proclaimed to all who would listen that he was Billy the Kid. Billy the Kid had been killed in 1881 in New Mexico.
Unfortunately for Brushy Bill, there is an excellent paper trail of his life found in census, marriage, divorce, and WWI registration records. His birth name was Oliver Pleasant Roberts.
The life story of Oliver Pleasant Roberts: Born 26 August 1878, Sebastian County, Arkansas Died 27 December 1950, Hico, Hamilton County, Texas
1880 AR census, Sebastian Co, m/f page 668B, line 27 Henry Roberts, 30, Head, TX - - Elizabeth Roberts, 24, Wife, AR TN AR Samantha Roberts, 8, Dau, AR TX AR Martha Roberts, 6, Dau, AR TX AR Berry Roberts, 3, Son, TX TX AR Mary C. Roberts, 2, Dau, AR TX AR Olover Roberts, 1, Son, AR TX AR
1900 TX census, Hopkins Co, m/f page 246A, line 29 Henry O. Roberts, Head, May 1852, 48, TX VA TX Sarah E. Roberts, Wife, Feb 1856, 44, AR VA AR Oliver P. Roberts, Son, Aug 1879, 20, AR TX AR Thomas U. Roberts, Son, Oct 1885, TX TX AR Irvan Roberts, Son, Feb 1895, 5, TX TX AR
1910 TX census, Van Zandt Co, m/f page 105B, line 65 Oliver P. Roberts, Head, 30, 1st marriage, married 0 years, TX KY KY Anna Roberts, Wife, 22, 1st marriage, married 0 years, TX LA TX
O. P. Roberts and Miss Anna Lee were married 11 July 1909 in Van Zandt County, and he filed for divorce 16 September 1910. O. P. Roberts and Miss Mollie Brown were married 21 August 1912 in Canton, Van Zandt County.
1918 WWI Draft Registration Card, Arkinda, Little River County, AR 12 September 1918 - Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 August 1878, Arkinda, Arkansas. Nearest relative, Mollie Roberts, Arkinda, Arkansas Mollie Brown Roberts, born 11 March 1880, died 20 Feb 1919 in Little River County, AR, and is buried in Pauley Cemetery, Cerrogordo, Little River County, Arkansas
1920 TX census, Van Zandt Co, m/f page 26, line 46 Oliver P. Roberts, 41, boarder in the Murff household, is a widower, TX TX AR
Oliver married Luticia Ballard, widow of Abraham Isaac who had died 10 December 1920 in Van Zandt County, Texas
1930 TX census, Van Zandt Co, m/f page 48A, line 46 Oliver Roberts, 52, Head, TX TX AR, first marriage at age 51 Lutisha Roberts, 57, Wife, MO TN IL, first married age age 15
1940 TX census, Gregg Co, m/f page 296, line 78 Ollie Roberts, 70, Head, TX Luticia Roberts, 65, Wife, MO
1942 Photographed with J. Frank Dalton on DeWitt Travis' ranch.
After the death of Luticia Ballard Isaac Roberts 22 June 1944 in Grand Saline, Van Zandt County, Texas, Oliver married Malinda Elizabeth Murrell, widow of James Thomas Allison who died 14 February 1943 in Houston, Harris County, Texas.
1949 Went to Meramec Caverns, Missouri, with Ola Everhard to celebrate the 101st birthday of J. Frank Dalton who claimed to be Jesse Woodson James but was an impostor.
1950 Tuesday, January 10 - photographed in New York City at bedside of J. Frank Dalton.
1950 November 29 - photographed in Santa Fe New Mexico prior to meeting with NM Governor Mabry.
1950 December 27, death, Hico, Hamilton County, Texas. The 1950 death certificate of Ollie L. Roberts was signed by Malinda E. Roberts.
These discrepancies are found in census and other records cited:
In the 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940 census, the birthplace of Oliver Roberts is shown as Texas; should be Arkansas.
In the 1910 census, the birthplace of the parents of Oliver Roberts are shown as Kentucky; should be Texas and Arkansas.
In the 1930 census, the first marriage of Ollie was reported to be at age 51; should be age 30.
In the 1940 census, the calculated birth year of Oliver Roberts is shown as about 1860; should be 1879 as in the 1880, 1900, 1910, and 1920 census records.
In the January 1950 New York City photograph, the age of Brushy Bill is 90; should be 70.
1950 Texas Death Certificate, Oliver's name is Ollie L Roberts; should be Ollie P. Roberts.
1950 Texas Death Certificate, Oliver's birth date is shown as 31 December 1868; should be 26 August 1879.
1950 Texas Death Certificate, Oliver's birth place is shown as Taylor County, Texas; should be Sebastian County, Arkansas.
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Post by 44colt on Jan 23, 2015 22:38:26 GMT -5
Just look at the photos in my book and that I posted on this board. When overlaid over each other 27 year old Brushy and 21 year old Billy's features click into place line for line.
I personally did the work and got chills when they matched perfectly. Exact length of each eyebrow....eye distance...nose...everything. They are the same guy. To me this is indisputable. I looked at them at the pixel level. Its the same guy.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jan 24, 2015 0:12:37 GMT -5
RWT,
I've tried my best to answer every question you posed to me and where I needed to admit I had been wrong about something I've done so. Can you just answer even one of the questions I have posed? Reposting the same dates, census records and discrepancies again and again is not going to help settle anything. It leads me to think you don't have a good answer for the question I asked so you just try to change the subject.
Do you agree that Lobato and Silva both lied on one or more occasions? Yes or No?
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Post by cassandra jane on Jan 29, 2015 18:55:08 GMT -5
Not in any way RTW, and still, frankly, a little intimidated about actually posting here as opposed to just reading, but all of the people involved with Billy on and around the night he was allegedly shot in Fort Sumner appear to have lied about the manner of Garrett shooting that man so I don't believe it's a stretch to assume Lobato and/or Silva lied too. Especially about being part of a wanted man's escape. Who wouldn't lie to save their own necks from (likely unfair) punishment?
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 2, 2015 16:05:35 GMT -5
The records listed by RWT follow Oliver Pleasant Roberts from his birth until his death, and are credible. Census recorders and county employees were not slanting history and trying to sell books; they were simply recording information at the time. Those records only prove that Brushy Bill was not Billy the Kid. Whether Pat Garrett killed Billy the Kid is an entirely different topic.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 2, 2015 18:03:41 GMT -5
Yosemite,
The census takers recorded the information they were given. Some of it was lies. From the 1910 census on, it is entirely possible that Billy The Kid was identifying himself as Oliver P., Oliver, or Oliver L. Roberts. The census takers would not have known that. They don't require birth certificates or proof of any kind. He did tell them the partial truth on one occasion though. In 1910 he told them he was born in Texas and his parents were both born in Kentucky. At least, that is what "I" believe happened. It's always interesting to see how some want to put all their trust in what the census takers recorded but "only" when the records are consistent with what they want to believe.
What about that 1910 record? How do you explain that? I don't buy that it was just an error that someone made. Brushy gave Morrison the same birth information some 40 years later. A coincidence? I think not.
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 2, 2015 19:49:40 GMT -5
Land, "The census takers recorded the information they were given. Some of it was lies." That is a mischaracterization on your part. You have no way of knowing if any incorrect information was the result of ignorance, carelessness, misunderstanding, or deliberate intent to provide false information. Ignorance, carelessness, and failure to understand the question do not constitute lying.
Are you inferring that everything uttered by Brushy Bill and recorded by William V. Morrison was after Brushy Bill was sworn in with his hand on the bible to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 2, 2015 20:37:05 GMT -5
Brushy gave the same birth places to Morrison that he reported to the census taker in 1910, some 40 years earlier. It is asserted that Brushy's claim, to Morrison, in 1950, of being born in Texas and both parents born in Kentucky was a lie. I believe there is very solid evidence to show it was not a lie, because it is corroborated by the information shown in the 1910 census. The odds of some census taker making an error that just happened to match the information Brushy gave to Morrison 40 years later are astronomical. This information must have been given to the census taker intentionally. Of course that doesn't "prove" it was not a lie, but I believe the 40 year span between the two events suggests strongly that the information was truthful. At the very least it very strongly suggests the information was given intentionally.
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 3, 2015 17:09:45 GMT -5
Land, "The census takers recorded the information they were given. Some of it was lies." Now we are getting somewhere. You are saying, in effect, that Kentucky might not have been the birthplace of the parents of Oliver P. Roberts as recorded in the 1910 census. You are saying that the respondent could have provided the wrong birthplace for Brushy Bill in the 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940 census records, since he was born in Arkansas and not in Texas. You are saying that Brushy Bill was not necessarily 70 years old in 1940. His age should have been 80 if he was born in Buffalo Gap in 1859, or 72, based on the 1868 birth year on this death certificate and his first tombstone, or 60, since he was born in Sebastian County, Arkansas in 1879. Either way, it's a lie, right?
"The odds of some census taker making an error that just happened to match the information Brushy gave to Morrison 40 years later are astronomical."
I believe there were only 46 states in 1910, so the odds appear to be no more than 45 to 1, somewhat less than what I consider to be astronomical odds. More importantly, can you provide anything that supports the birth of Billy the Kid in Kentucky, other than Brushy Bill's alleged genealogy as related to William V. Morrison? Has anyone ever been able to identify James Henry Roberts, or "Wild Henry" Roberts in any census record?
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 3, 2015 19:16:11 GMT -5
Come now. You don't really think some census taker made an honest error back in 1910 that Oliver P. Roberts' parents were "both" born in Kentucky and that Brushy then 40 years later just happened to choose that same fictitious birthplace for his make believe parents. Call those odds "astronomical" or not, it just didn't likely happen that way. Brushy obviously, intentionally told the census taker in 1910 that his parents were born in Kentucky. Why would he do that? He certainly was not trying to prepare for his interview with Morrison that didn't occur for another 40 years. Surely you can concede this looks suspicious!
"Either way it's a lie, right?" I'm not even suggesting the report of the parents being born in Kentucky isn't necessarily a lie. I'm just saying it was no census taker's error. Not an honest mistake. You can't dismiss it that easily. And I'm certainly not suggesting Brushy never lied about anything. Obviously, he did. I "am" saying that since the Kentucky born parents thing was not just some fluke or honest mistake on the part of the census taker, that it just "might" be the truth.
Oh, and by the way, we'll have a much more meaningful debate if you hold me responsible for what I actually said as opposed to what you think I "in effect" said. Just sayin'.
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 3, 2015 23:07:11 GMT -5
" I "am" saying that since the Kentucky born parents thing was not just some fluke or honest mistake on the part of the census taker, that it just "might" be the truth."
Land, I agree that the individual that went from house to house to obtain information for the census probably recorded what was provided by a household member. I also know that Anna Lee and Ollie had been married for about 10 months. How much personal information had they shared? The November 1910 divorce doesn't indicate a harmonious relationship. Who provided the information? Was Ollie at home? How much did Anna Lee know about her in-laws? It seems to be your assumption that Ollie provided the information that his parents were born in Kentucky. If he did, why doesn't the 1920, 1930, and 1940 census also show Kentucky as the birth place of both parents? There's no logical reason for Ollie to conceal that information. Billy the Kid was believed to be a dead man in New Mexico, either as William Antrim or William Bonney. Ollie was reporting an 1879 birth year, not 1859. He was living under the name of Oliver Roberts, not William Antrim or Bonney. The residents of New Mexico thought Billy the Kid had been born in New York. Now why in the world would the law be looking for someone born in Kentucky?
At the risk of putting words in your mouth, it appears from previous postings on this and other threads that you agree that there was an Oliver Pleasant Roberts, the son of H. O. Roberts. You also seem to be believe that some time prior to 1942, Brushy Bill became a citizen of Van Zandt County. Since he told Morrison about his wives, do you believe he arrived in Van Zandt County before 1910?
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 4, 2015 11:03:37 GMT -5
All good questions, thank you.
I've thought about the possibility that Anna was the respondent. My logic tells me if she was the one who gave his birthplace as Texas and his parents as Kentucky then it was because that is what he had told her. In fact, I think it's even more reason to suspect the information was not some mistake or something. It is certainly logical to think the two of them had discussed their backgrounds, a la where their parents were born, where they were born. If not, then wouldn't Anna have responded "gee, I really don't know. He's never said."? Now why do I say it is "more" reason? Because if Brushy didn't give that info himself, it would be unlikely that he even knew that was on the 1910 census when he spoke to Morrison in 1950. I'm not positive but wasn't the 1910 census still unavailable to the public in 1950? Even if it was available, the likelihood of Brushy having access to it is quite minimal.
Now, moving on, let's say Anna gave the info to the census. That means Brushy told her that and he might well have said it not suspecting she was going to report it to the census. In fact, if he'd known she was going to, he probably wouldn't have confided it to her. This could explain why it only showed up in 1910 and not 1920,30, 40. In answer to your questions of why he even needed to hide that info, I would think he was being cautious. Probably unnecessarily so but nonetheless, cautious. He was pretending to be Oliver Pleasant Roberts. He would have wanted to give answers that supported that pretense. He didn't want to make a mistake that had even the remote possibility it would cost him his life. Next question is one I've asked myself. Why then would he continue to report he was born in Texas when the real Oliver was born in Arkansas? My answer is I suspect he thought Oliver "was" born in Texas. The family had moved there when Oliver was quite young. More reason to suggest the census raises many questions about the truth of Brushy really being Oliver P. Roberts. I think the real Oliver would have known what state he was born in and would have given the correct information to the census as was done in 1880 and 1900.
And so, yes, I believe he arrived in Van Zandt county between the 1900 and 1910 censuses, or at least by some time in 1910. And yes, I believe many of his described adventures were made up stuff. Not to mention that Brushy definitely was having serious problems with dates by the time he interviewed Morrison. Listen to the audio of his interview with the news man. You can hear that on Roy Haws' Facebook page, called Brushy Bill Debunk Society. In that interview he mentions he had seen Dalton at the World's Fair in 1894. The reporter corrects him that the World's Fair was in 1904. Brushy then agrees he had seen Dalton at the World's Fair in "1904". Whether he really saw Dalton at the World's Fair or not, he missed the year of the Fair by 10. This was not an intentional mistake. It was a mental error.
I'll explain further. I just turned 65 and for about 10 years now I've been finding that I don't remember names as well as I use to. And I'm talking mostly the names of famous actors. I don't have problems remembering the name of the movie they were in or what they looked like or the sound of their voice. Just their name. This includes actors as well known as Tom Hanks, It is very frustrating sometimes. I'm no expert on brain activity but I have done some study in brain research for recertification as a school teacher. Certain types of information get stored in certain areas of the brain. This can explain why one particular type of information can begin to dissipate sooner than other types. As in movie star names or in Brushy's case, dates. I don't have any problem with dates. Brushy probably didn't have a problem with actors' names but he obviously had a problem with dates in the last years of his life as is proven by listening to that audio recording from 1949.
What am I suggesting here? I'm saying I don't think we can rule out the possibility he was Billy The Kid just because he gave conflicting information involving where he was in what year. I also don't think we can rule it out because he included description of certain events in his life that may not have happened at all. I look at reasons to believe and not believe and I still am very inclined to believe he was the Kid.
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Post by Yosemite Sam on Feb 4, 2015 12:14:27 GMT -5
Land, Worst case, maybe Brushy Bill didn't arrive in Van Zandt County until August 1912 when he married Mollie Brown. Brushy Bill and Mollie then relocated to Little River County, AR. O. P. Roberts then purchased 80 acres of land in Sevier County, AR, in February 1918 (Sevier County is north of and adjacent to Little River County), before the same 80 acres are sold by O. P. Roberts and Mollie Roberts in September 1918. On 12 September 1918, Brushy Bill registered for the WWI draft with the local board for Little River County, Ashdown, Arkansas. It appears that Brushy Bill filled in all the information, and if so, would indicate that Brushy was able to read and write. Brushy Bill's signature appears as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, immediately below the printed statement, "I AFFIRM THAT I HAVE VERIFIED ABOVE ANSWERS AND THEY ARE TRUE".
If Brushy Bill was born in 1859, he was not required to register (I know, he was just being cautious and registered). Again we have Brushy Bill lying. He signed as Oliver Pleasant Roberts rather than William Henry Roberts (I know, he was just being cautious). He said be was born not 31 December 1858, but 26 August 1878 (wasn't that when Geneva Pittmon Roberts said her uncle Oliver P. Roberts was born?) I know, he was just being cautious and had found a copy of the Roberts family Bible with Oliver P. Robert's birth date of 26 August 1879 and was off by one year.
Didn't Brushy Bill claim to be working on a Mexican ranch from 1910 to 1915? Or was he operating a successful ranch in Mexico from 1907 until 1914? (I know, the old man's memory was bad!) Maybe Mollie Brown went to his Mexican ranch on her honeymoon.
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