Evidence That Garrett Shot Billy The Kid

[rdouglasc]

What is the actual evidence? From what I understand his deputy thought it was the the wrong man and the body was quickly buried and conflicting coroner's reports. What are the facts surrounding these circumstances?

[mckinley412]

There's a book called Billy the Kid The Elder that I haven't read yet that is supposed to cover all the different facts or versions of his alleged death. And there's this: www.angelfire.com/mi2/billythekid/qandi.html

[Texas Truth Teller]

rdouglasc,
A death certificate for Henry McCarty/Henry Antrim/William Bonney would be conclusive proof that Pat Garrett killed Billy the Kid, but no death certificate exists. There is an image of the original coroners jury report, in Spanicsh, that was convened after the death of Billy the Kid at the following website:
www.angelfire.com/nm/boybanditking/page29.html

If you search the website, "Chronicling America" for 'Billy the Kid', from 1881 to 1882, one of the responses is an article in the Salt Lake Herald, July 20, 1881, page 6, image 6, with a description of the time and place where Pat Garrett fired the fatal shot.

You will also find another unsubstantiated and speculative story that probably originated in New York City. Newspapers across the country picked up the story that Henry McCarthy (sic) had lived in the 4th ward of New York City.

Skeptics will maintain that the Coroners Jury report is flawed, and that the newspaper account is not credible.

You have raised an important question. Apparently Brushy Bill had many scars. That is not disputed. Does any record exist of Billy the Kid's wounds (and scars)? Brushy Bill described his scars, but his word does not prove that the scars resulted from the Lincoln County war.

Dr. William Tunstill interviewed one of Brushy Bill's cousins in August 1957. She knew that Ollie had retired from the rodeo circuit and settled back in Hico. Could that be the reason for some of Brushy Bill's scars?

[rdouglasc]

So the only evidence is Garrett saying that he killed Billy, which the newspaper article(s) repeats? Weren't there three conflicting coroner's reports or two and one lost or something like that? (I'm fairly new to this - but right now I do see more evidence that Roberts is Billy than there is that Garrett killed Billy)

As far as his scars, I've known a few rodeo guys and bronc busting doesn't really leave scars. Dislocations and broken bones can be common and can leave limbs and digits funny looking, but not in the way of scars so I would probably say that the scars weren't from that.

One thing that I'm noticing in my study is that it seems to be Robert's word against Garrett's word. People seem quick to accept Garrett's word with no evidence and dismiss Roberts and demand evidence.

[Texas Truth Teller]

rdouglasc,
If you have already decided Brushy Bill is Billy the Kid, I'm wasting my time responding. If you want to consider all evidence, don't limit your research. The question of Billy the Kid's death in 1881 is one issue. An equally important question was asked by Sonnichsen, "If Brushy Bill was not Billy the Kid, who was he?"

Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, was born in Sebastian County, AR, in 1879. He is in his parents' household in the 1880 census of Sebastian County, AR. He is in his parents' household in the 1900 census of Hopkins County, Texas. He is married to Anna Lee in the 1910 census of Van Zandt County, Texas. He is also in Van Zandt County in the 1920 and 1930 census records, and in Gregg County in 1940.

His niece, Geneva Roberts Pittman, said that her uncle, Oliver P. Roberts, was born 26 August 1879. Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown in 1912, and Van Zandt County marriage records prove that Mollie Brown married Oliver Roberts in 1912. WWI Draft card proves that the nearest relative of Oliver Pleasant Roberts was Mollie Roberts. Oliver Pleasant Roberts said he was born 26 August 1878 (sic).
If you have a copy of "Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same", read pages 35 and 36. William Tunstill and his wife were in the home of Brushy Bill's second (sic) cousin. Tunstill showed her photos of Brushy Bill and William Morrison. She recognized Brushy Bill as Ollie. She wanted Tunstill to see a large picture of her grandmother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, in her living room. Tunstill said, "I thought that was Brushy Bill's mother. The same picture is illustrated on page 58 of Morrison's book."

A strong argument that Oliver Pleasant Roberts and Brushy Bill Roberts were different names for the same man.

[mckinley412]

Starting in 1910 Brushy Bill's place of birth and his parents place of birth changed. Which suggests they were not the same man. If brushes mother died when he was two three years old he would not be able to identify a photograph of his mother so it very well could be Oliver's mother. When Morrison first question Brushy, Brushy said that Billy the Kid was his half-brother living in Mexico. a couple of people have also said that Billy was in Mexico. One was a guy on YouTube, he was interviewed, he was a grandson he said the real Billy the Kid sent his grandmother letters but the letters don't exist now, and he said Billy the Kid died in a town that started with the letter p. I have often wanted to watch this interview again if anyone knows how to find it please post the website. He said the name of the town I just don't remember it anymore, I believe it started with the letter p. Also there's the alleged letter that Brushy sent to a Kit Carson saying that Billy the Kid would visit in a couple weeks, maybe it is possible that brushy just knew the real Billy the Kid very well. I happen to believe he was the real Billy the Kid. he said he shot Mortin and Baker and there just so happens to be a witness that said he saw Billy the Kid shoot both of them. Brushy says he rode into Fort Sumner right before Pat Garrett killed somebody and Jesus Silva also says Billy the Kid had just rolled into town. I find it hard to believe that he got so many things right when everyone else that writes books gets everything so wrong. Either Billy the Kid faked his death and survived and he was not Brushy Bill Roberts or Billy the Kid survived and he was Brushy Bill Roberts. I do believe Goss lied about Billy getting loose from the chain. There was another witness who was interviewed and he said he asked Goss why he didn't he kill Billy with the axe when he was getting ready to split the chain and Goss said he couldn't that Billy was too fast. I still find more all the time that convinces me Brushy was Billy the Kid or he knew Billy the Kid and I doubt he knew Billy the Kid when he was 2 years old

[Wayne Land]

It is difficult to be certain exactly who Brushy was referring to when he mentioned his "mother." Whether she really was or not, he had been claiming Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson as his mother for almost 40 years before he met Morrison. He obviously would have had little to no personal memory of his natural mother and even his accurate knowledge of her name and lineage would have been questionable at best. So I suspect when Morrison asked him to identify the photo of Sarah Elizabeth he might well have answered that she was his mother. But I doubt he used the description "birth mother" or "real mother". He was almost 90 years old. I know it is not a welcome comment to those who don't believe his story but at 90 years old he was probably a bit confused anyway.

[Texas Truth Teller]

Belief can be based on facts, or faith. DeWitt Travis, Martile Able, and Robert E. Lee signed sworn affidavits that they believed Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. They had faith that the claims of Brushy Bill were true. None of them had seen William Bonney, so their belief was not based on facts.

"Starting in 1910 Brushy Bill's place of birth and his parents place of birth changed. Which suggests they were not the same man."

What is the explanation for that statement?
Are you saying that Brushy Bill was married to Anna?
Oliver Roberts married Anna Lee 11 July 1909 in Van Zandt County.
Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown, Loutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison. He did not name Anna Lee as one of his wives.
It is true that the place of birth of Brushy Bill's parents was shown as Kentucky in the 1910 census. It is also true that the birthplace of Brushy Bill's father was shown as Texas, and the birthplace of his mother was shown as Arkansas in the 1880, 1900, 1920, and 1930 census records.
It is true that the birth year of Oliver Roberts appears in his WWI registration, and all census records prior 1940 as 1879 plus/minus 1 year. In 1940, Brushy Bill's birth year jumped to about 1870.
It is true that Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, was born 26 August 1879.

Why was it necessary for Brushy Bill to adopt the name of Oliver Roberts rather than use the name of William Henry Roberts? NM trial records identify Billy the Kid as William Antrim, William Bonney, or Kid. Is there any record in any published literature that the surname of Billy the Kid was Roberts?

[Texas Truth Teller]

"I know it is not a welcome comment to those who don't believe his story but at 90 years old he was probably a bit confused anyway."

Wayne, I am pleased to agree with a portion of your response. A child whose mother died when he was 3 years old would probably have no recollection of her appearance and be incapable of identifying her.

There is a logical explanation. Try to follow along.
1. Brushy Bill did identify the picture of Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson as his mother. William Morrison assumed that the picture was that of Mary Adeline Dunn.
2. Cousin Ollie was killed in Oklahoma.
3. Brushy Bill took his belongings to Ollie’s parents in Sulphur Springs, Hopkins County.
4. Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson and Henry Oliver Roberts lived in Hopkins County.
5. Ollie’s mother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, took Brushy Bill to her bosom as her long lost son.
6. Brushy Bill correctly identified the picture of his mother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts
7. Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts was the mother of Oliver Pleasant Roberts, after about 1930, also known as Brushy Bill Roberts, Ollie Roberts, O. L. Roberts, William Henry Roberts, and Billy the Kid.

And last but not least, Brushy Bill was 70 years old when he died. The 1910, 1920, 1930 census reports, and the WWI draft registration card are documented evidence. I know, Brushy Bill was hiding from the law and giving a false age. That's why he kept memorabilia to prove that he was Billy the Kid.

[Wayne Land]

"None of them had seen William Bonney, so their belief was not based on facts. "

Actually that statement is based on faith rather than fact. Because you can not prove it is fact. I know exactly how you'll try to prove it, but you won't be able to. But while we're talking "facts", let me ask you this one question. Do you believe it to be a fact that Severo Gallegos saw the real Billy The Kid before he died?

[mckinley412]

Was Jesse Evans a known liar? Did he have a history of constantly claiming that people were Billy the Kid? Why not claim someone was Pat Garrett? Why hire an attorney to win your case and make up silly ridiculous stories? Something doesn't make sense.

[Texas Truth Teller]

"Do you believe it to be a fact that Severo Gallegos saw the real Billy The Kid before he died?"

Yes. Of course. Severo Gallagos and Jose B. Montoya could have seen William Bonney before his death 14 July 1881. Severo was 10 years old and living in Lincoln, NM, in 1880. If they saw him many times, they would probably have a very accurate mental image in 1950 of how he had looked in 1880. After 70 years, that does not mean they would recognize him in 1950, even if he were alive.
Morrison introduced Brushy Bill as William H. Bonney. In the courtroom, that would probably be described as leading the witness, or coaching the witness. Remember, Severo Gallegos said that Oliver Roberts was too young to be Billy the Kid, even with Morrison’s prejudicial introduction. That’s because Severo was 80, and Brushy Bill was 70. William Bonney would have been 90.
With Morrison’s encouragement, Severo met again with Brushy Bill the next day, peered into his eyes, saw brown spots in the blue iris, and signed an affidavit.
Who believes a 10 year old kid would have been around William Bonney enough, and observant enough, to look at Billy the Kid's eyes? Pistol, yes. Rifle, yes. Holster, yes. Eyes? I don’t think so.

[Wayne Land]

All valid observations but I disagree that Severo wouldn't have been able to recognize Billy all those years later. The human face viewed in person exhibits such intricate traits as to make it possible to recognize those movements of expression even when not viewed for many years. The facial expressions and manner of speech are as unique from one individual to another as finger prints. As for the eyes, if you are going to insist Severo could not have recognized the unique eyes all those years later then you are saying he was dishonest in his affidavit. Maybe he was but I tend to accept what people say is the truth unless they have given good reason to think they are lying. Do you think Severo was lying when he said he could recognize the eyes? I guess you'll say he was simply mistaken but his statement didn't seem like he was uncertain. Funny how Brushy's every statement has to be either the truth or a lie but never simply a mistake while Severo's statement is so easily dismissed as a mistake.

[Texas Truth Teller]

"Funny how Brushy's every statement has to be either the truth or a lie "

Even Morrison said about Brushy Bill's narrative, "Much of it may be fiction. It is impossible about now to say how much of it is true."

I believe all that has been positively confirmed as true are Brushy Bill's marriages to Mollie Brown, Loutecia Ballard, Melinda Allison, and his ownership of land in southwest Arkansas. Brushy Bill knew many details of the Lincoln County war, but those details had been published in 1926.

[Wayne Land]

You're changing the subject. Do you think Gallegos was a liar or was he just mistaken?