WhisperingBillyBarlow
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Post by WhisperingBillyBarlow on Oct 27, 2023 14:29:11 GMT -5
Where did you pick up the story of Stella and the boot event? If true, it would cast some doubts on Dalton's claim. There is also the question however, if the story is true, what about Stella herself? Would she have had any reason to fabricate false evidence against Dalton? Could she have gotten the boots mixed up with someone else's boots? The story can be found in a book entitled, "Legends and Lies: Great Mysteries of the American West" by Dale Walker (1998) on page 104, and the incident in question took place not long after the September 5th, 1950 promotional event held at Meramec Caverns near Stanton promoting J. Frank Dalton as Jesse James. Stella would later be involved in the famous "Stella James vs Rudy Turilli" case in 1967 held in a courtroom in Saint Louis, Missouri where Turilli made the claim he would give anyone $10,000 to prove J. Frank Dalton wasn't Jesse James and the court ruled in Stella James favor, and an appeals court refused to overturn the verdict. $10,000 to anyone who could prove J. Frank Dalton wasn't Jesse James *
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Post by RonBk on Oct 31, 2023 7:55:25 GMT -5
Since 10.000 $ was there for the taking it's entirely possible that Stella was only in it for the money. She had no actual first hand knowledge in the matter of Dalton's identity or the death of Jesse James. As for the boots story, the evidence value of this is questionable at best. Just because there is a story about this in a book doesn't mean the boots where in fact Jesse's, or that the event even occured for that matter. What does it say in the book about the source for the story? Maybe I should just get the book, thank you for the tip. Here is another piece of evidence in support of Dalton's claim, so what's your explanation for this? I feel confident you have some argument ready to refute this evidence and I may agree. But the thing is, as Im sure you are aware, similar arguments can probably be made to refute the evidence held against Dalton.
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WhisperingBillyBarlow
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Post by WhisperingBillyBarlow on Oct 31, 2023 9:40:54 GMT -5
Since 10.000 $ was there for the taking it's entirely possible that Stella was only in it for the money. She had no actual first hand knowledge in the matter of Dalton's identity or the death of Jesse James. As for the boots story, the evidence value of this is questionable at best. Just because there is a story about this in a book doesn't mean the boots where in fact Jesse's, or that the event even occured for that matter. What does it say in the book about the source for the story? Maybe I should just get the book, thank you for the tip. Here is another piece of evidence in support of Dalton's claim, so what's your explanation for this? I feel confident you have some argument ready to refute this evidence and I may agree. But the thing is, as Im sure you are aware, similar arguments can probably be made to refute the evidence held against Dalton. View AttachmentI will have to create another account in order to see the picture because guests don't have access to pictures on the forum, but I can see enough of the article to probably find it online. One thing I will say about J. Frank Dalton, even if he wasn't Jesse James and had no connection to the James Gang, he did seem to have a pretty good knowledge about the Confederacy and the Antebellum South and Missouri history. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he was a Confederate (he was denied a pension when he applied to for Confederate benefits), nor does it mean he was a Missourian. Years ago, I found evidence from a book store owner in Texas who said that before Dalton claimed to be Jesse James he briefly claimed to be Billy The Kid himself, and he would request any books available on Missouri, etc. If you look up prior posts on the forum you might find me having posted it, but if not I will try and re-find it online. Furthermore, I might add that the individuals calling themselves Jesse James III and Jesse James IV who wrote the book on Dalton are in fact Houck's son and grandson, but they claim Dalton is their grandfather & great-grandfather. It seems when it came to Dalton several people were in on the hoax. Ola Everhart was a victim, and one might argue Brushy Bill Roberts might also been a victim of Dalton's get rich schemes. It is difficult weeding the fact from the fiction as to the friendship/relationship between Brushy and Dalton, but it does seem at some point the two men's partnership soured. Edwards says, according to Morrison's notes, that Dalton tipped several people off that Brushy was Billy the Kid and this ****ed Roberts off. Then again, if he was so irate then how does one explain Ola Everhart's testimony that Brushy died while trying to post a letter to Dalton? ((Shrugs)) Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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WhisperingBillyBarlow
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Post by WhisperingBillyBarlow on Oct 31, 2023 10:10:32 GMT -5
Since 10.000 $ was there for the taking it's entirely possible that Stella was only in it for the money. She had no actual first hand knowledge in the matter of Dalton's identity or the death of Jesse James. As for the boots story, the evidence value of this is questionable at best. Just because there is a story about this in a book doesn't mean the boots where in fact Jesse's, or that the event even occured for that matter. What does it say in the book about the source for the story? Maybe I should just get the book, thank you for the tip. Here is another piece of evidence in support of Dalton's claim, so what's your explanation for this? I feel confident you have some argument ready to refute this evidence and I may agree. But the thing is, as Im sure you are aware, similar arguments can probably be made to refute the evidence held against Dalton. View AttachmentI will have to create another account in order to see the picture because guests don't have access to pictures on the forum, but I can see enough of the article to probably find it online. One thing I will say about J. Frank Dalton, even if he wasn't Jesse James and had no connection to the James Gang, he did seem to have a pretty good knowledge about the Confederacy and the Antebellum South and Missouri history. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he was a Confederate (he was denied a pension when he applied to for Confederate benefits), nor does it mean he was a Missourian. Years ago, I found evidence from a book store owner in Texas who said that before Dalton claimed to be Jesse James he briefly claimed to be Billy The Kid himself, and he would request any books available on Missouri, etc. If you look up prior posts on the forum you might find me having posted it, but if not I will try and re-find it online. Furthermore, I might add that the individuals calling themselves Jesse James III and Jesse James IV who wrote the book on Dalton are in fact Houck's son and grandson, but they claim Dalton is their grandfather & great-grandfather. It seems when it came to Dalton several people were in on the hoax. Ola Everhart was a victim, and one might argue Brushy Bill Roberts might also been a victim of Dalton's get rich schemes. It is difficult weeding the fact from the fiction as to the friendship/relationship between Brushy and Dalton, but it does seem at some point the two men's partnership soured. Edwards says, according to Morrison's notes, that Dalton tipped several people off that Brushy was Billy the Kid and this ****ed Roberts off. Then again, if he was so irate then how does one explain Ola Everhart's testimony that Brushy died while trying to post a letter to Dalton? ((Shrugs)) Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all It seems my old posts have been removed. Phillip W. Steele, The Many Faces of Jesse James, Gretna: Pelican Publishing, 1998, pp. 90–91 Is what relates to Ed Bartholomew saying Dalton was working with Houck as early as 1939, and going by the name of Dolby at the time. He claimed to be Billy The Kid at that time, only to go to Jesse James a few short years later. Prior to 1939 he tried to say he was Judge Isaac Parker's deputy Frank Dalton. It must be noted that a large part of Dalton's claim rested on asserting "Wild Henry Roberts" who was allegedly married to Mary Adeline Dunn, the alleged father of Brushy Bill Roberts, was pallbearer at Jesse James funeral, and that he knew that Jesse James faked his death. If Dalton was an imposter, and Roberts was telling the truth, it'd mean Dalton was using Brushy to pass himself off as credible. If both men are imposters, well then it is what it is. Or perhaps Brushy Bill Roberts was telling some truths, along with lies, and that's why it's difficult to sift through the stories. Personally I think it possible Roberts always was under the impression Dalton was Jesse James when he really wasn't and at some point figured out for himself it wasn't the case. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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WhisperingBillyBarlow
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Post by WhisperingBillyBarlow on Oct 31, 2023 10:45:56 GMT -5
I will have to create another account in order to see the picture because guests don't have access to pictures on the forum, but I can see enough of the article to probably find it online. One thing I will say about J. Frank Dalton, even if he wasn't Jesse James and had no connection to the James Gang, he did seem to have a pretty good knowledge about the Confederacy and the Antebellum South and Missouri history. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he was a Confederate (he was denied a pension when he applied to for Confederate benefits), nor does it mean he was a Missourian. Years ago, I found evidence from a book store owner in Texas who said that before Dalton claimed to be Jesse James he briefly claimed to be Billy The Kid himself, and he would request any books available on Missouri, etc. If you look up prior posts on the forum you might find me having posted it, but if not I will try and re-find it online. Furthermore, I might add that the individuals calling themselves Jesse James III and Jesse James IV who wrote the book on Dalton are in fact Houck's son and grandson, but they claim Dalton is their grandfather & great-grandfather. It seems when it came to Dalton several people were in on the hoax. Ola Everhart was a victim, and one might argue Brushy Bill Roberts might also been a victim of Dalton's get rich schemes. It is difficult weeding the fact from the fiction as to the friendship/relationship between Brushy and Dalton, but it does seem at some point the two men's partnership soured. Edwards says, according to Morrison's notes, that Dalton tipped several people off that Brushy was Billy the Kid and this ****ed Roberts off. Then again, if he was so irate then how does one explain Ola Everhart's testimony that Brushy died while trying to post a letter to Dalton? ((Shrugs)) Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all It seems my old posts have been removed. Phillip W. Steele, The Many Faces of Jesse James, Gretna: Pelican Publishing, 1998, pp. 90–91 Is what relates to Ed Bartholomew saying Dalton was working with Houck as early as 1939, and going by the name of Dolby at the time. He claimed to be Billy The Kid at that time, only to go to Jesse James a few short years later. Prior to 1939 he tried to say he was Judge Isaac Parker's deputy Frank Dalton. It must be noted that a large part of Dalton's claim rested on asserting "Wild Henry Roberts" who was allegedly married to Mary Adeline Dunn, the alleged father of Brushy Bill Roberts, was pallbearer at Jesse James funeral, and that he knew that Jesse James faked his death. If Dalton was an imposter, and Roberts was telling the truth, it'd mean Dalton was using Brushy to pass himself off as credible. If both men are imposters, well then it is what it is. Or perhaps Brushy Bill Roberts was telling some truths, along with lies, and that's why it's difficult to sift through the stories. Personally I think it possible Roberts always was under the impression Dalton was Jesse James when he really wasn't and at some point figured out for himself it wasn't the case. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all archive.org/details/manyfacesofjesse0000stee/page/90/mode/1upThe book can be read for free online. Page 85 onwards recalls a couple of different Jesse James imposters, and Dalton just happens to be the best known one. His hand writing didn't match Jesse James, his foot size wasn't the same, he failed to answer questions only the James family and local historians knew, and he had the wrong scars (ie, his index finger was cut off at the tip, when the real Jesse James had his middle fingertip cut off). Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by MissyS on Nov 1, 2023 0:15:30 GMT -5
J Frank Dalton left behind a trunk that included some writings by him inside it including some stories about the Pinkertons and Civil War, and love poems to Belle Starr and event invitations. Was the handwriting from these writings the handwriting that was compared to Jesse James? The writings would be interesting to read. They’re at the University of Texas at Austin, Briscoe Center. There were two bodies in the Granbury grave but only one was tested and it revealed a man that had died in 1927, so it was the wrong body tested. If J Frank Dalton traveled showing his burned feet and rope burns on neck and maimed finger etc. could he had done this with a Wild West Show? www.101highlandlakes.com/news/jesse-james-impersonator-spun-tales-of-outlaws-at-roper-hotel
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WhisperingBillyBarlow
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Post by WhisperingBillyBarlow on Nov 1, 2023 4:34:11 GMT -5
J Frank Dalton left behind a trunk that included some writings by him inside it including some stories about the Pinkertons and Civil War, and love poems to Belle Starr and event invitations. Was the handwriting from these writings the handwriting that was compared to Jesse James? The writings would be interesting to read. They’re at the University of Texas at Austin, Briscoe Center. There were two bodies in the Granbury grave but only one was tested and it revealed a man that had died in 1927, so it was the wrong body tested. If J Frank Dalton traveled showing his burned feet and rope burns on neck and maimed finger etc. could he had done this with a Wild West Show? www.101highlandlakes.com/news/jesse-james-impersonator-spun-tales-of-outlaws-at-roper-hotelI think it was indeed those things left behind in the hotel that was compared to known JJ handwriting samples. As for the injuries, I imagine some were over the course of adventures he had throughout his life but many might've been self inflicted or worse. There was rumors for decades that Dalton was the victim of elder abuse from Orvus Lee Houck/Howk and Ola Everhart said herself she was scared to be around him, etc. It's possible Houck/Howk was responsible for the burnt feet, missing tip of the finger, etc. Anyways, looking at the Houck/Howk genealogy and seeing how J. Frank Dalton himself interjected Obediah Houck/Howk into the narrative saying he was at JJ's funeral and married into the family, etc--- one of Obediah Houck/Howk's sons Jepath ended up in Oklahoma, while the other siblings remained in Missouri or went to Kansas or Iowa. Considering Dalton spent so much time in Oklahoma, etc it seems possible that the theory that J. Frank Dalton was really a Houck/Howk is potentially true, especially when Orvus Lee Houck and his offspring have claimed J. Frank Dalton was their grandfather, and styling themselves as JJ's grandkids. This would explain how Dalton would know a lot about Missouri, and also have access to the Texas-Arkansas-Oklahoma area. If they did a DNA test with J. Frank Dalton's remains and it came back as their grandfather, or uncle, or cousin... nobody ought to be shocked, because the evidence indicates they were already related prior to coming out of the woodwork and claiming J. Frank Dalton was JJ. They were all Howk's. Anyways back to the letters and poems and writings. I believe they went as far back as a 1926 date when he was claiming to be lawman Frank Dalton. I know Dalton wrote many articles for newspapers over the years, and perhaps in one of them he notes he's in Charleston Arkansas or that he knew of an incident where JJ was in Charleston Arkansas. If that be the case, then I think my theory gains ground, and would explain away one of the biggest criticisms thrown Brushy Bill Roberts way. I'll have to try to find censuses on Jepath Howk and see if he was ever in Arkansas himself. If he was, then that makes it all the more likely the "Jesse James" that Francis Dunn knew was in fact J. Frank Dalton. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by texas truth teller on Nov 6, 2023 23:10:57 GMT -5
Excerpts, THE LAWTON (OKLA.) CONSTITUTION Wednesday Evening, May 19, 1948
~~Jesse's real life began when the ornery little coward shot Mr. Howard and laid Jesse James in his grave." It was then, a mere lad of 35, he decided to acquire some of the world's culture. He departed for parts unknown, namely Texas. There he joined the Texas rangers for a period until he was convinced by his colonel that he should obtain an education. He accepted the colonel's recomendation, went to Ann Arbor, Mich., where he first completed his elementary education before taking up the study of medicine. Soon he realized that his was not the temperament for a doctor and switched to the study of law. In near record time he completed the degree, although he never practiced the profession in the normal manner.~~
~~That in itself, the colorful leader explains, was enough to send he and Frank on the trail of vengeance. But Jesse isn't looking for sympathy. From the time of his official demise in 1882, Jesse James was on any frontier where there was excitement. He is intimate with the old cattle trails from Texas to Abilene, Kansa. Every foot of the trail he knows like a book. Even modern highways, he is far more accurate than his companions as to location. I changed my name as often as I changed my shirt,", he recalls today. "It wasn't healthy in those days for anyone to ask too many questions." The Lincoln county war of New Mexico, staged before the turn of this century, is a familiar event of history to the elder James. He doesn't admit his role, but knowing him it is easy to imagine that he wore one of the names familiar to historians. He served Oklahoma, then the Indian territory, as a United States Marshal under the name of J. Frank Dalton. Later he went to Dodge City, Kansas, where he served as marshall of that wild and wooly cattle town. Bat Masterson, another famous gunman, succeeded him as marshall. These two men were close friends for many years thereafter. Under the name of Frank Dalton, Jesse served as a peace officer in many towns in the days of the first oil boom in Texas. He was a familiar figure at Burkburnett. The lure of adventure claimed him at the outbreak of the Spanish American war. He had been a close aquaintance of Pancho Villa, the Mexican leader. The Boer war found him fighting on the side of the British as an army colonel. Later he went on another expedition to Africa where he engaged in hand-to-hand combat with the Hottentots, the only assailants he fled from. Their methods of combat were not those of the white man, lacking the code of the gentleman. Colonel Dalton returned to the states. But with him came a collection os shrunken heads, treated by the headhunters until they were the size of apples. Some of them may be viewed today in the Smithsonian institute. Not content with fighting in more wars than is common to the average man, Colonel Dalton was still vigorous with life when World War I caught his country napping. Because of some of his doubtful relations with the United States army as a result of the War Between the States, the confirmed old rebel declined to discuss the issue. When Britain become entangled, thus drawing Canada into the conflict, he volunteered for duty in the Canadian Army. Because of his educational background, he was quickly accepted as an officer. He concluded his duty as a major and not long ago the Canadian government attempted to locate the old soldier to decorate him. Of interest to Lawtonians and the many servicemen who have served at historic Fort Sill, the outlaw leader was a field artilleryman. To him the term "bracket" means just as much toward hitting the target as the quick draw of the sixgun meant toward health and safety when he was on the rugged trail which crisscrossed the Wichitas. World War I was four years of "hell". Part of the time he served as an interpreter. During his lifetime he had become fluent in several languages. Among them are French, Spanish, Portugese, German and the Indian sign language. Adding insult to his injured feet, he suffered mustard gas burns which made them even more tender. He protects them today with much care. In addition to the affidavit which old Jesse has signed, he offers as evidence the many scars on his body that he is the outlaw leader. Realizing that many will be skeptical, he is willing to submit to a physicians examination to determine the location of scars. One in particular, which is known to the world, is a damaged left forefinger. It was injured when he was small when accidentally his older brother, Frank, caused an object to drop on it. The nail all those years has grown crooked.~~
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