|
Post by nmjames on Feb 19, 2015 23:14:48 GMT -5
Hi Wayne,
Can you show me where John C. Able definitely knew Billy prior to 1881 and your sources?
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Feb 20, 2015 11:46:58 GMT -5
I'm certain I read somewhere some time ago of first hand reports of John and Billy having contact but I apologize I haven't been able to relocate that. For what it's worth, probably not much from your viewpoint, Martile said John had known Billy in 1880 in the area of Pecos, TX. It is entirely likely that Billy was in that area at times in 1880 as he and others stole horses and traded them off up and down the Pecos River. If I'm wrong in stating they "definitely" knew each other then I apologize. However, since it is entirely possible that they did, there's no reason to assume Martile was lying on that point.
Her affidavit also states that John and Billy were both in a group photo together. I've seen a photo that is alleged to be Billy and John and others where Billy is holding a violin. I have examined that photo carefully and see no evidence to suggest it is not Billy.
Question someone might be able to answer: In an earlier post it was stated Martile was born in 1873 yet in her affidavit taken in 1950 she states she was born more than 80 years earlier. That puts her birth prior to 1870 so was she lying about her age? Where did the 1873 date come from?
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 20, 2015 13:46:49 GMT -5
"So you think Severo Gallegos was a liar? "
Wayne, perhaps I should have prefaced my opinion. Facts are not suitable subjects for debate. It is a fact that Servero's name appears in the 1880 census of Lincoln County. Therefore, he could have seen Billy the Kid. That is not in dispute. That Billy the Kid was already in trouble with the law is a fact. It is not in dispute. Other statements and actions attributed to Severo are hearsay until credible evidence is presented in support of those claims. Those claim deserve to be questioned. The honesty of Severo is not in question. I believe that at first, Severo failed to recognize Brushy Bill as Billy the Kid, saying that he was not old enough (Brushy Bill was 70, and Severo was 80.) My Opinion: Probably, with encouragement from Brushy Bill or William V. Morrison, Severo was encouraged to look closer, so he looked at Brushy's eyes, and said he was BtK. I do not believe the earth is flat, even though it appears to be from ground level. I do not believe Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid, just because he claimed to be.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 20, 2015 14:06:39 GMT -5
"Question someone might be able to answer: In an earlier post it was stated Martile was born in 1873 yet in her affidavit taken in 1950 she states she was born more than 80 years earlier. That puts her birth prior to 1870 so was she lying about her age? Where did the 1873 date come from?"
Both John C. Able (31 July 1853 - 28 October 1918) FAG #134259789 and Martile Able (2 November 1873 - 23 May 1952 ) FAG #121263674 are buried in the Concordia Cemetery in El Paso.
Enumerators do OK with John and Mary, but census records from 1880 through 1940 struggled with Martelia. Her name appears as Telia, Matilde, M. D., Martile, and Marthie.
A newspaper clipping of her obituary is included on Find A Grave.
Regarding the affidavit of Mrs. Martile Able:
TIMELINE OF Martelia DeMarville "Marthie" Bilberry Ables 1880 TX census, Lampasas Co John Billberry, Head, 52, TN, NC, VA Elizabeth Billberry, Wife, 48, IL William Billberry, Son, 17, TX, TN, IL Mary Billberry, Dau, 13, TX, TN, IL Martelia Billberry, Dau, 7, TX, TN, IL Leonadas Billberry, Son, 5, TX, TN, IL
Texas Marriages: 1st marriage to Elijah Henderson 23 June 1891, San Saba County. 2nd marriage - Mrs. M. D. Henderson married J. C. Able 26 Jan 1898 in Taylor County, TX.
1900 TX census, Taylor Co John C Abel, Head, 39, TX, TN, Germany Telia Abel, Wife, 25, TX, TN, AR (born Nov 1874) Elma (Elmer) Abel, Son, 8, TX, TX, TX Cefas Abel, Son, 6, TX, TX, TX Allie M. Abel, Dau, 3, AR, TX, TX Nettie Henderson, Step Dau, 8, TX, MS, TX Dexter Henderson, Step Son, 6, TX, MS, TX Dollie Abel, Dau, 1, TX, TX, TX
1910 TX census, El Paso Co John Abel, Head, 50, TX, TX, TX Matilde Abel, Wife, 40, TX, TX, TX Dexter Abel, Son, 16, TX, TX, TX Cifus Abel, Son, 15, TX, TX, TX Allen A. Abel, Son, 14, TX, TX, TX Dolly Abel, Dau, 11, TX, TX, TX Mary J. Abel, Dau, 7, TX, TX, TX
1920 TX census, El Paso Co M. D. Abel, Head, 49, TX, TN, AR Helen Abel, Dau, 8, TX, TX, TX Herbert Kahl, Son-in-law, 26, NY, NY, NY Dollie Kahl, Dau, 20, TX, TX, TX Edward Kahl, 3, GSon, TX, NY, TX John Kahl, 1, GSon, TX, NY, TX
1930 TX census, El Paso Co Martile Abel, Head, 59, TX, TN, IL
1940 TX census, El Paso Co Marthie Able, Head, 69, TX Dolly Daniels, GDau,13, TX
TX death certificate Marthie Ables DOB - 2 Nov 1873 POB - Texas DOD - 23 May 1952 POD - El Paso, El Paso County, Texas Father - John Billberry (Tennessee) Mother - Mary Jean Walker (Tennessee) Informant - Johnnie Kahl
Find A Grave Memorial #121263674 Marthie was the daughter of Tennessee natives John C. Bilberry and Elizabeth Jane Walker. She was 1st married on June 23, 1891 in San Saba Co., Texas to Elijah "Legie" Henderson (AKA: T.A. Henderson), who was murdered on June 22, 1896 in San Saba Co., Texas. She was remarried on Jan. 23, 1898 in Taylor Co., Texas to John C. Ables. Marthie had lived in El Paso, El Paso Co., Texas for 71 years.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Feb 20, 2015 17:35:45 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller posts:
"Other statements and actions attributed to Severo are hearsay until credible evidence is presented in support of those claims. Those claim deserve to be questioned. The honesty of Severo is not in question."
Webster defines "hearsay evidence" as:
"evidence based not on a witness's personal knowledge but on another's statement not made under oath"
When Gallegos says he recognizes Brushy's eyes as the same as Billy's and identifies him as Billy, that is not hearsay. It is based on his personal knowledge and is not hearsay. At least not when he said it. Did he really say it? It's documented and sworn to and notarized so yes, he did. Not hearsay.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 20, 2015 18:05:39 GMT -5
"When Gallegos says he recognizes Brushy's eyes as the same as Billy's and identifies him as Billy, that is not hearsay. It is based on his personal knowledge and is not hearsay. At least not when he said it. Did he really say it? It's documented and sworn to and notarized so yes, he did. Not hearsay."
Statements in sworn affidavits may or may not be true. J. Frank Dalton's promoters solicited several to shore up the myth that John Frank Dalton was Jesse Woodson James. As you said, at first, Severo was not positive that he had seen Brushy Bill before. Only after looking at his eyes was was he willing to sign an affidavit. Did he sign the affidavit as a favor? Was he coerced? Was he paid? It's still hearsay, because no evidence exists that Billy the Kid was alive after 1882.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 21, 2015 14:16:14 GMT -5
Hello, NMJames "Can you show me where John C. Able definitely knew Billy prior to 1881 and your sources?" I think that will be extremely difficult. I can't even find John C. Abel in any census prior to 1900. Brushy Bill and J. Frank Dalton were bush league tall tale tellers. Orion Woodman, born in Illinois, was a major league tall tale teller. There is a fascinating, but completely untrue, autobiographical story at www.oklahomagenealogy.com/homeseekers/two_braids_ora_woodman.htmThroughout his life he was known as Orion Woodman, Two Braids, Tommy Stringfield, Ora Woodman, and Uncle Kit Carson (No relation). He wrote a booklet in 1910, " Captured by the Apaches: Forty Years With This Savage Band of Indians, A True Story by "Two Braids". In the 1900 and 1910 census records, he was a showman, and apparently was with Wild West shows. He was living in Roswell, New Mexico, at the time of his death in 1957 (the aliens may have been responsible for his death). The really interesting part is a letter he received from O. L. Roberts dated 1 April 1949. In one paragraph, Ollie writes, "We heard from Billy the Kid. He is doing fine and we are looking for him to come visit us in Hico, Texas." Maybe this is Ollie's idea of an April Fool's joke. Maybe not.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Feb 21, 2015 17:11:02 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller,
You wrote: "It's still hearsay, because no evidence exists that Billy the Kid was alive after 1882."
I'm not trying to play school teacher here. I only point this out because labeling Gallegos comments as "hearsay" is misleading and pointedly incorrect. Short of having it on tape, we can't ask for much more proof of what he said than a sworn, signed and notarized affidavit. Whether his statements were truth, lies or misconceptions does not make them hearsay. If I were to claim I heard Severo make those statements without any evidence he actually made them, then my comments would be hearsay. His documented statements are "not" hearsay.
I always admit it and often apologize when I'm shown to be wrong. Can you not do the same here? I wasn't talking about whether Gallegos statements were true and correct but simply that he "did" make them. Which brings us back to the important question that started this. Do you think he was lying? You mentioned him being coerced. Maybe he was bribed. Maybe he was threatened. Maybe he made the statements while under hypnosis. Maybe he made them while a gun was pointed at him. Fact is, you have no reason to suggest he was "coerced" other than that's the way you choose to reason away the validity of his statements.
Some think it doesn't matter what Gallegos said because they are so convinced Brushy was a fraud. Some are so convinced he was really the Kid that it doesn't matter how many obvious falsehoods he, Brushy, attested to. Somewhere lies the true facts. All who are interested in finding those facts should try hard to be as objective as possible.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 21, 2015 18:21:38 GMT -5
You wrote: "It's still hearsay, because no evidence exists that Billy the Kid was alive after 1882."
Severo did sign an affidavit. He did say he thought Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. He possibly thought he was telling the truth. Is that proof? It is his opinion, no less, no more.
No evidence has ever been found that proves Billy the Kid was alive after 1882. No evidence has ever been found that proves Brushy Bill replaced Oliver P. Roberts, son of H. O. and Sara Roberts, in census records and marriages. No evidence has ever been found dating the arrival of Brushy Bill in Van Zandt County. No evidence has ever been found of Brushy Bill's service with the Texas Rangers. No evidence has ever been found of Brushy Bill's service in Cuba with the Rough Riders. No evidence has ever been found of Brushy Bill's service as a deputy marshall under Judge Isaac Parker. No evidence has ever been found of Brushy Bill's trip to Argentina. No evidence has ever been found of Brushy Bill's work as a scout for the stagecoach lines. BUT Dr. William A. Tunstill said that Billy the Kid returned to the U S and spent a few days with John C. Able and Martile Able in El Paso in 1883, about 15 years before they were married. (Martile was only 10 years old at the time.)
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Feb 21, 2015 18:23:46 GMT -5
Actually,
"We heard from Billy the Kid. He is doing fine and we are looking for him to come visit us in Hico, Texas."
is not quite exactly what he wrote in that letter. I have a photo copy of the entire letter including the envelope it was mailed in. It was addressed to "uncle kit carson, Roswell, NM" Apparently mailed by Brushy while he was in New Mexico with Morrison.
Here's the text of the entire letter (with appropriate punctuation and capitalization added).
<<Dear Uncle Kit Carson. We got here OK. We are doing fine. Hope this finds you the same. The wind blows every day and it is cold. Wheat looks good. Good season in the ground. Cattle they are fat. They sure look good. Lots of cattle here. We heard from the boys over sea. They are doing fine. They are moving 4 hundred miles farther north from where they are Dad. We heard from Billy The Kid. He is doing fine. We are looking for him to come home. He will stay with us 2 weeks then he will go over sea for 3 years Dad. I will do my best to get Billy The Kid to come by and see you. We sure are lonesome and sure are blue about our boys. Sure wish they was at home. Well Dad, here is hoping you the very best of luck. I will be over that way when the fruit gets ripe. Here is hoping we live in peace for a long time. May God bless you in your old days. Love and best wishes to you from you son, O.L. Roberts Dara, New Mexico, Box 57 If you need me let me know. >>
I thought folks on both sides of the Brushy debate would find the letter intriguing. I believe it does prove Brushy was able to write his own letters when he wanted to. But what is his real purpose in writing such a letter with references to things that on the surface, don't make sense. Who are "the boys" and why is he talking about Billy The Kid as if he is someone else. I think he is avoiding referring to himself as Billy The Kid, in writing, because he isn't yet certain about going public with his true identity and he was not certain the letter would not be read by someone other than "uncle kit". I think "the boys over sea" is the way he refers to his acquaintances from the LCW days. Again because he doesn't want the letter to be used as evidence he is really Billy. When he says "we are looking for him to come home" I think he means they are hoping he's going to be able to tell who he really is. When he writes "he will stay with us for 2 weeks" I think he is expecting their visit to New Mexico to take 2 weeks and Morrison may have cautioned him that obtaining his pardon could take "several years". I think "over sea" means "in hiding". "We sure are blue about our boys" means they're sad in finding many of the acquaintances from LCW are passed away (moving 4 hundred miles north).
OK. That's enough for now. Bring on the responses and opinions. Maybe someone else can provide a different interpretation of what the letter actually means.
|
|
|
Post by MissyS on Feb 21, 2015 18:26:17 GMT -5
I believe Gallegos was being truthful and ID'd Brushy with no problem after looking at his eyes, Gallegos supposedly said that no one had eyes like that but Billy The Kid, I really believe Billy's eyes was a strong feature he had, Sister Blandina a nun that visited Billy in jail also made note of his eyes in the book about her life in Santa Fe, saying they were steel blue and mentioned the corners of his eyes, I believe after reading various persons description of Billy that his eyes was a feature many remember. Martile had at one time shown Morrison a photogragh taken in a barbershop , in the photo John Able was shaving a man in a chair and Martile pointed out that Billy The Kid was sitting on a bench waiting for a haircut in the photo, she had said she saw Billy The Kid before and after the shooting by Garrett, and the last time he visited before Morrison brought Brushy to see her around 1950 was 1902. When Morrison brought Brushy to see her she immediately recognized him and when Morrison asked Brushy if he knew who she was he immediately recognized her as John's wife Martile, this is according to Jameson's book Beyond The Grave. John may have been a barber at sometime and had known Billy/Brushy from that?, Martile also said she fixed Billy/Brushy a meal, and John gave or loaned him horses, pretty believable since many others that knew him did the same. These persons had no reason to lie, if Billy was their friend they wouldn't accept an imposter posing as him. If someone came to me with a person claiming to be my friend that passed on and that person tried to coax me into signing affidavits to that fact, I surely wouldn't agree, out of respect for my friend I wouldn't like someone stealing his or her identity, I would have to be completely sure, this is why I tend to believe these affidavits.
|
|
|
Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 21, 2015 18:31:20 GMT -5
Interesting 2/20/15 SANTA FE, N.M. (AP) - A New Mexico court is being asked to order state officials to issue a death certificate for Billy the Kid to settle questions about whether the 19th Century outlaw was in fact killed in 1881.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Feb 21, 2015 18:34:00 GMT -5
"BUT Dr. William A. Tunstill said that Billy the Kid returned to the U S and spent a few days with John C. Able and Martile Able in El Paso in 1883, about 15 years before they were married. (Martile was only 10 years old at the time.)"
Tunstill either did his math wrong or simply guessed at the year of 1883. Or there was a visit in 1883 but it was with John, not John and Martile. It's obviously wrong. But it does not negate Martile Abel's affidavit. Don't hold her responsible for what Tunstill wrote.
"No evidence has ever been found that proves Billy the Kid was alive after 1882" I disagree. Among other things, I consider the signed affidavits as "evidence". They are evidence that certainly would be admissible in a court of law.
|
|
|
Post by MissyS on Feb 21, 2015 18:39:18 GMT -5
If Martile said she cooked Billy/Brushy a meal, and signed an affidavit to that fact, then she had to have been old enough to cook, not a little girl or child?
|
|
|
Post by MissyS on Feb 21, 2015 18:46:56 GMT -5
How old would Martile have been in 1905 because she had stated that was the last time she saw Billy/Brushy before Morrison brought him to see her? Sorry it was 1902 I just looked it up sorry.
|
|