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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 23, 2015 17:04:12 GMT -5
It's never been proven that Brushy Bill Roberts and William H. Bonney, alias Billy The Kid were not one and the same man. Again, to me, your logic doesn't work. Brushy appeared before Governor Mabry in hopes of convincing him to pardon him for crimes committed as "Billy The Kid". He had to know the other possible outcome was being put back in jail and having his death sentence carried out. How can you say he was not afraid of being apprehended? Even if he really was not Billy, he wasn't stupid enough to think there was no risk in claiming he was. I still disagree with your basic premise about the letter.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 23, 2015 21:21:40 GMT -5
Wayne, Has your physician ever diagnosed the severe case of denialitis that affects your reasoning ability? if not, I strongly recommend you change doctors.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 27, 2015 13:40:44 GMT -5
"So you think Severo Gallegos was a liar? And you think Martile who was definitely married to a man who definitely knew Billy prior to 1881 could not have had any way of knowing who he was?"
I will be polite and say that Severo Gallegos and Jose B. Montoya may have truly believed Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid but they were mistaken. DeWitt Travis was a liar, Morrison had told Martile Abel that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid since she had not seen him prior to 1881, and Robert E. Lee was a liar. Billy the Kid was killed in 1881. History as it exists is correct until it is proven wrong with credible evidence and records. Neither of those exist to prove that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Census records from 1880 until 1940, Roberts family history, and credible information provided by Roy Haws all support the fact that Brushy Bill was Oliver Pleasant Roberts from his 1880 birth until his 1950 death. Books by Morrison, Tunstill, and Jameson do not provide any credible evidence that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Morrison's affidavits have no legs to stand on.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 27, 2015 13:57:38 GMT -5
Wayne, Has your physician ever diagnosed the severe case of denialitis that affects your reasoning ability? if not, I strongly recommend you change doctors. As moderator of this forum I'm going to ask you to not belittle others when stating your opinion. And that includes me. A vigorous debate is what I enjoy, but "mudslinging" is not helpful.
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 27, 2015 14:05:20 GMT -5
Morrison had told Martile Abel that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid since she had not seen him prior to 1881 Do you have any evidence to support that? According to Morrison, didn't Brushy recognize Martile immediately upon meeting her? I freely acknowledge Morrison did not specify in his book that he had not told Brushy or Martile who the other one was suppose to be prior to introducing them, but the book clearly attempts to make it appear they saw each other without any advance introductions and immediately recognized each other. In my opinion, in order to accept that Morrison was intentionally misleading the reader on this point is to accept that he was not looking to find the truth so much as he was willing to just do what it took to prove Brushy was Billy. My problem with that is, I've read letters from Morrison and reports from others who met him that make it appear he was honestly looking for the truth. Since I've not been provided with any evidence he was intentionally trying to promote a fraud, then I choose to take Morrison as a man of integrity. Therefore, I have no reason not to accept the book as it was written. There's another reason I have that respect for Morrison's intentions. He could have made up witnesses. He could have lied about what they said or what Brushy said. He could have made his book much more convincing than he did. That is "if" he wanted to deceive the reader. I don't see one bit of intentional deception on the part of Morrison. If DeWitt Travis was lying, and I think he probably was, then I think Morrison did not know that. Same with Robert E. Lee.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 28, 2015 21:52:16 GMT -5
"Do you have any evidence to support that?"
Martilia (Martile) Bilberry, age 7, was in Lampasas County, Texas, in the 1880 census. She married Elijah Henderson in San Saba County, Texas, in 1891. Was she capable of identifying someone she had never seen?
Didn't William V. Morrison move to El Paso about 1949 or 1950? Didn't he bring Brushy Bill to El Paso?
"In 1950, an El Paso reporter recorded an interview with Mrs. Mardle Ables, she was quoted having said that she had seen and talked to Billy the Kid the day before. She further stated that he was living under the alias of Ollie Roberts, nicknamed Brushy Bill."
Now where would Martile have gotten that information?
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 28, 2015 23:59:16 GMT -5
I do not think she personally knew Billy The Kid before 1881. I believe her husband did and Billy came to visit them around 1900 or so, her husband introduced him to her. I'm sure she would have believed her husband would not lie to her and therefore accepted Brushy as the one and only Billy The Kid. Then when he was brought to her in 1949 or 50 (not sure what year it was), Morrison intentionally did not tell Brushy who they were to visit. When they arrived, without prior coaching, Morrison asked Brushy if he knew her. He responded "sure, that's John Abel's wife." Now I know you probably think Morrison coached Brushy before asking him to identify her, but you have not provided any real evidence to support that belief. At least not anything I consider evidence.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 1, 2015 9:37:05 GMT -5
"It's never been proven that Brushy Bill Roberts and William H. Bonney, alias Billy The Kid were not one and the same man."
I strongly disagree with that statement.
I think you left out four important words: "It's never been proven TO ME, WAYNE LAND, that Brushy Bill Roberts and William H. Bonney, alias Billy The Kid were not one and the same man. "
I can easily agree with that statement
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 1, 2015 10:29:09 GMT -5
I did not say it had been proven they were the same man. I said it had not been proven they weren't the same man. And it hasn't. And not just "TO ME, WAYNE LAND". There's been no DNA tests, We have no notarized affidavits stating they were different men. We do have affidavits swearing they were the same. We have certain documents, census records, etc. that would "indicate" Brushy was really Oliver P. Roberts but they absolutely do not prove that. Census records can be wrong and we all know that is a fact. We have a draft registration for Oliver P. Roberts that was likely entered by Brushy but we have no proof the person registering was not actually Billy The Kid.
No, I will not accept your edit of my statement.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 1, 2015 10:41:36 GMT -5
"I do not think she personally knew Billy The Kid before 1881."
I agree. She never saw or knew Billy the Kid, only Brushy Bill.
"I believe her husband did and Billy came to visit them around 1900 or so, her husband introduced him to her."
Not credible. Neither John C or Martile Abel ever met or saw Billy the Kid. It is over 500 miles from Uvalde, TX to Lincoln, NM, and 600 miles from Austin, TX, to Lincoln, NM.
John C. Abel 1870 TX census, Travis Co, m/f page 165a, line 23 John J. Abel, 52, AR Mary Abel, 49, AR Eliza B. Abel, 15, TX JOHN C ABEL, 10, TX
1880 TX census, Uvalde Co, m/f page 541D, line 17 John Abel, Head, 62, TN, SC, SC Nancy Abel, Wife, 59, AL, TN, AL JOHN C ABEL, son, 19, TX, TN, AL
Of course the argument can be made whether his wife's name was Nancy, Mary, or Mary Nancy, or whether they were two different women, or whether the enumerator created the discrepancy.
John Abel and Nancy Smith were married in Marshall County, Alabama, 8 December 1840. They appear in the 1850 census as John J and Nancy Abel in Carroll County, Mississippi.
The affidavit of Martile Abel, like the affidavit of DeWitt Travis, is absolutely meaningless.
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 1, 2015 11:24:25 GMT -5
"The affidavit of Martile Abel, like the affidavit of DeWitt Travis, is absolutely meaningless." You need to add "TO ME" to the end of that sentence. So John was in Travis County, TX in 1870 on the day the census was taken. Where was he the other 364 days? Or 364 days during 1880. For that matter where was he each day of the 10 year period between the 1870 census and the 1880 census. These census records or absolutely meaningless "TO ME".
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 1, 2015 17:13:05 GMT -5
"For that matter where was he each day of the 10 year period between the 1870 census and the 1880 census."
Perhaps you can clarify that a bit more. On what day, or week, or month did John C. Abel travel to New Mexico to see Billy the Kid before he was shot in 1881.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 1, 2015 18:51:55 GMT -5
"We have no notarized affidavits stating they were different men. We do have affidavits swearing they were the same"
There are five sworn affidavits stating that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Those are admissible in court. Those questionable affidavits would be subject to cross examination if admitted to court. Were these five affidavits admitted to court and subjected to cross examination?
It is true that there are no affidavits stating that Brushy Bill's claim to be Billy the Kid was a fraudulent claim. There are two Brushy Bill family members that have stated Brushy Bill was Oliver P. Roberts, and that he was not Billy the Kid.
William Henry "Billy the Kid" McCarty Antrim was killed in 1881.
Oliver P "Brushy Bill" Roberts died in 1950.
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 1, 2015 22:37:47 GMT -5
"There are two Brushy Bill family members that have stated Brushy Bill was Oliver P. Roberts"
Yes, and those statements are not based on first hand knowledge of Brushy's identity. They would likely "not" be admissible in court.
Neither McCarty or Antrim was Billy The Kid's birth name. His name was William Henry Roberts and he died in Hico, TX in 1950.
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Post by jgaines on Mar 2, 2015 16:04:24 GMT -5
No proof that Billy the kid was alive after 1882 ? I've seen photo copies of a warrant for his arrest by the state of New Mexico printed during 1882. Not hard to find - it was in news papers. So apparently the state of New Mexico did not believe Garrett had killed Billy. There also exists no death record to this date for Billy. In fact, historian Robert Stahl is trying to get the state of New Mexico to issue a death certificate right now. These are facts.
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