DNA Study

[mwb]

I'm not sure if this belongs under this heading, but I wondered if anyone had heard anything from the Steve Sederwell investigation and DNA study from a while back. The last thing I saw was that Hamilton, Tx. had refused to allow for Brushy's exhumation. DNA is really the only way to ever resolve this conclusively, I think. They did exhume John Miller and supposedly had the workbench Billy (or whoever) was allegedly placed on at some point after the shooting. The test on Miller was supposed to be pending for a couple of years and they've never released anything. I've brought this up on previous forums, but there is also that alleged hair of Billy at a museum at Ft. Sumner. Some have dismissed that as obviously fake, but I say why not give it a try. Can't hurt.

[lacowboy]

I haven't spoken to Steve in a long time, I guess it was about the time of the Hamilton court case. At that time he wasn't telling anyone about the DNA. I think he still had hopes of getting Brushy dug up at the time. He may still be planing something. He ran for Sheriff of Lincoln County last election and lost. I think he had hopes of trying to reopen the case officially in order to get the exhumation order. I know he honestly does not believe Billy was killed by Garrett.

[mwb]

Do you know Mr. Sederwell personally? Do you know if he's ever been asked about testing the hair from that museum? That would seem to me to be such an obvious thing to try. Certainly easier than exhuming people. I guess one way or another it wouldn't necessarily prove anything, but what if, for example, it matched the DNA of the blood on the bench, or matched John Miller's DNA? I supposed they've checked for any possible Brushy DNA other than an exhumation. I'm no expert, but it watching Dateline, crime shows, etc. on TV, they can do some amazing things with very small bits of DNA. Something as small as saliva on a cup or cigarette butt.

[lacowboy]

I have spoken to Steve on the phone on occasion. He turned me on to the fellow who had the plans of Fort Sumner when it was a military fort. As for ever meeting him face to face I have to sadly say no. He very friendly on the phone, and without a doubt believes Billy lived past July 14 1881. I believe he has a private investigators company out of Albuquerque New Mexico. I also believe he still has a home in Capitan New Mexico.

[Wayne Land]

Sorry I've not been posting much lately. I've had a number of other "irons in the fire" but I'm happy to see we have some discussion going on. I doubt Sederwall obtained any match between Miller and that bench. If he had, it wouldn't have taken him this long to announce it. And it is a shame no DNA testing has been done on Brushy. If Hamilton, TX would allow the exhumation of Brushy, his DNA could be tested against living descendants of Oliver P. Roberts' family and easily prove whether or not he was actually Oliver P. and not Billy. Comparing his to the bench would not be a match because according to Brushy, he never was laid out on that bench. I believe the hair in the museum in Fort Sumner is possibly genuine although few people believe that to be the case. There is no reason to assume it is not genuine. Some say it looks like doll's hair but I say, it's 128+ years old. It wouldn't look like freshly cut hair at this point. Here's a photo in case anyone hasn't seen the hair.

Attachments:

[mwb]

Yes, it's very frustrating to know that the means to once and for all solve this mystery are at hand, but not being taken used. Does anyone know exactly why Hamilton wouldn't allow for the exhumation of Brushy? I looked back and saw where it was put to a vote of the city council. I wonder why they would have to vote on it if he has living relatives somewhere that could okay it. I wish someone could interview Steve Sederwell and ask these questions. Every time I see a story there seems to be so much left unsaid or unasked! It's been several years since the Miller thing. Why can't they simple announce the findings? Unfortunately, without the DNA testing, it will forever be simply one opinion vs. another.

[Wayne Land]

My friend Jannay Valdez was at that council meeting that voted against exhumation and I spoke to him not long after. He didn't seem to be sure about why they voted it down. But he did mention that the lady (I've forgotten her name) that runs the Billy museum in Hamilton, was opposed to the exhumation. She claims Brushy was indeed Billy The Kid but she also claims to be a descendant. I actually met her in '06 but I'll have to apologize I do not remember the specifics of the story she told because I don't put much stock into it. Something along the lines of her great grandmother being involved with Billy and having his child. Of course, if they believed she was a descendant of Billy's then they likewise believe Brushy was Billy. I'm sure they want to continue the tourist dollars they receive from it, so they wanted to believe her. The question is, why would she oppose the exhumation? You'd think she would want the proof to be discovered.

As for Sederwall, he may believe Billy lived beyond 1881 but I think he has ruled out Brushy in his own research. Reason being, I think he read the book and/or spoke with Jim Johnson who claims to have proven Brushy was not Billy and I suspect he bought into that. That book, BTW, is titled "Billy The Kid - His Real Name Was..." in case you'd like to read it. He makes a convincing case against both Miller and Brushy as being Billy, but he does not present "proof" as he claims to. He follows the birth of Oliver Pleasant Roberts in 1879 and traces him all the way up to his death as Ollie L. "Brushy Bill" Roberts in 1950 and makes it appear the two are one and the same. I believe however, somewhere around 1910-1912 William Henry Roberts, "Brushy Bill" a.k.a. "Billy The Kid" showed up in VanZandt Co., TX and took on the identity of Ollie L. Roberts not long after Oliver Pleasant Roberts had left the area never to return. The only "proof" I have is handwriting samples from Brushy and from Oliver P. Roberts that are so different a blind person could see they were not written by the same hand. Additionally, Brushy spoke in some detail about his three marriages post 1910 but never said a word about having been married to Anna Lee in 1908. That's because Anna Lee was married to the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts and "not" Brushy.

[Wayne Land]

Here's an article I located that reports on the decision.

Begin Article-

Body won't be exhumed

HAMILTON, Texas - The remains of a Texas man who contended he was the real Billy the Kid will stay buried in Hamilton after city officials voted to deny a New Mexico lawman's request to exhume the body for DNA testing.

Ollie "Brushy Bill" Roberts, who died in 1950, is buried in this small West Texas town under a monument that identifies him as the legendary Wild West gunslinger.

Mainstream historians believe the real Billy the Kid was a different man fatally shot in Fort Sumner in 1881.

Steve Sederwall, a reserve deputy with the Lincoln County Sheriff's Department in New Mexico, is investigating Roberts' allegation that he was the famed outlaw.

But the Hamilton City Council voted Thursday to deny Sederwall's request to have Roberts' remains dug up.

"My concern is that there may be some relatives who might come forward and say they weren't consulted," said Bill Funderburk, Hamilton city administrator. "The conservative way to do this is in the courts."

Among those who believe Roberts was Billy the Kid is Jannay Valdez, who runs a roadside Billy the Kid museum along an interstate highway in Canton, Texas.

"We must explore it," Valdez told the council. "We did holes in Africa to find ancient cultures. All we want is just a fingernail snip."

Hamilton is about 70 miles west of Waco.

- Associated Press

End Article

Sounds to me like they're afraid of what might be discovered. But they shouldn't be.

[lacowboy]

Nov 2, 2009 11:37:58 GMT -5 Wayne Land said:

My friend Jannay Valdez was at that council meeting that voted against exhumation and I spoke to him not long after. He didn't seem to be sure about why they voted it down. But he did mention that the lady (I've forgotten her name) that runs the Billy museum in Hamilton, was opposed to the exhumation. She claims Brushy was indeed Billy The Kid but she also claims to be a descendant. I actually met her in '06 but I'll have to apologize I do not remember the specifics of the story she told because I don't put much stock into it. Something along the lines of her great grandmother being involved with Billy and having his child. Of course, if they believed she was a descendant of Billy's then they likewise believe Brushy was Billy. I'm sure they want to continue the tourist dollars they receive from it, so they wanted to believe her. The question is, why would she oppose the exhumation? You'd think she would want the proof to be discovered.

As for Sederwall, he may believe Billy lived beyond 1881 but I think he has ruled out Brushy in his own research. Reason being, I think he read the book and/or spoke with Jim Johnson who claims to have proven Brushy was not Billy and I suspect he bought into that. That book, BTW, is titled "Billy The Kid - His Real Name Was..." in case you'd like to read it. He makes a convincing case against both Miller and Brushy as being Billy, but he does not present "proof" as he claims to. He follows the birth of Oliver Pleasant Roberts in 1879 and traces him all the way up to his death as Ollie L. "Brushy Bill" Roberts in 1950 and makes it appear the two are one and the same. I believe however, somewhere around 1910-1912 William Henry Roberts, "Brushy Bill" a.k.a. "Billy The Kid" showed up in VanZandt Co., TX and took on the identity of Ollie L. Roberts not long after Oliver Pleasant Roberts had left the area never to return. The only "proof" I have is handwriting samples from Brushy and from Oliver P. Roberts that are so different a blind person could see they were not written by the same hand. Additionally, Brushy spoke in some detail about his three marriages post 1910 but never said a word about having been married to Anna Lee in 1908. That's because Anna Lee was married to the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts and "not" Brushy.

Wayne I spoke to Steve shortly after the Hamilton thing and he at that time not in so many words but he did indicate to me that he believed Brushy was possibly Billy. I don't believe Jim Johnson's piece of junk book convinced anyone other than an idiot of anything at all.

[mwb]

This is all interesting info. Thanks! I agree, Wayne, that it does sound like some people are afraid of what might be discovered. I supposed if you have a vested interest, such as a museum, tourist attraction, grave site, etc., you don't want your position proved wrong. However, it would seem to me an honorable thing to put your money where your mouth is and have your point proven or disproven once and for all. I hope Steve Sederwell hasn't given up on Brushy, because to me, he is the only legitimate possibility of Billy living past 1881.

In the piece above on the Hamilton Council vote, there's a quote......... "My concern is that there may be some relatives who might come forward and say they weren't consulted," said Bill Funderburk, Hamilton city administrator. "The conservative way to do this is in the courts." Do you know what this means? Would Mr. Sederwell, or whoever, file a request with a court? Not sure how this would work. Does anyone know if this action was ever taken or is being considered. If not, it sounds like the Steve Sederwell investigation may be over. I hope not.

My name is Mark, by the way........

[Wayne Land]

Of course, since I haven't spoken to Sederwall (never had the chance to meet or speak to him) I certainly don't know for certain how he feels about Brushy at this point. But my above comments were based on something I read in an article somewhere after that last vote in Hamilton. Something to the effect that he was not going to pursue it in the courts because he no longer believed Brushy might have been the Kid. And since at the time, Johnson's book of illogic was being highly discussed in and around the debate over Brushy and I had heard that Johnson was there for the meeting (not sure about that), I just put two and two together and figured he'd probably gotten hold of Sederwall and filled him with his theories. That is all just conjecture on my part. I do hope Sederwall has not given up on investigating Brushy's story. If anyone has the political clout and are resources to finally get some DNA testing done, I expect it will be Sederwall. We can always hope!

[mwb]

Just wondering, has anyone heard any more mention of the DNA study that Steve Sederwall was involved with regarding Brushy and John Miller. I'm assuming that's dead, unfortunately. Maybe there's just not enough interest, but I think that's a shame that it's hit such a dead end. That seems to me to be the only way to really solve this mystery. Even if they could simply come out and say it was negative with Miller, that would be something.

[Wayne Land]

Actually, I had the pleasure of speaking to Steve on the phone recently, about a month ago. We had a long conversation and he is an extremely personable gentleman I must say. Some of what he told me, he asked not be publicized but I will share that my above comments about him no longer believing Brushy was possibly Billy were based on false reports. He is very interested in Brushy's story. The DNA unfortunately is probably a dead horse though. The process of comparing the DNA found on the bench has become prohibitively expensive. Steve however did state he would be happy to support any efforts to recover DNA from Brushy. But it seems the problem really is one of financing the effort. Do you know anyone with "lots" of cash and a desire to get to the truth??

[Wayne Land]

I'll share one other statement he made. He said based on his investigations he had no doubt that Billy The Kid lived beyond 1881.

[mwb]

Thanks, Wayne. This is very all very exciting. However, I'm still puzzled by all of the secrecy surrounding this investigation. If he has information that shows Billy the Kid lived beyond 1881, why can't he share that? I can only guess that perhaps he hopes to profit at some point via a book or something. I can understand that angle, if that's what's going on. To bad for us, I guess. I just get frustrated with all the "I know something that's really big, but I'm not going to tell you now", stuff. That's been going on for several years now. First it was we found some really interesting new information, but we can't tell you. Next, there was the John Miller thing with the bench, etc. A famous DNA doctor was supposed to be on board. That was supposedly delayed because the expert was busy identifying Katrina victims. Now, several years later we find its too expensive? Regarding Brushy and DNA, how much are we talking about? Was he specific about cost? Can't really ask someone to support the effort without knowing how much it will cost. I don't know, seems like you can't pin him down on anything specific. I know you said you can't say some of what he told you (big suprise there), but did he say anything you didn't know before that really wowed you?

Sorry to sound so negative as I really am glad for any work he has done. I just wish it could be more open.