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Post by Wayne Land on Jan 17, 2014 10:45:15 GMT -5
You're so right. The unfortunate fact is that almost everyone who researches this goes into it with a mindset one way or the other. Then information that is not found in any recorded document is used to support theory that is really nothing more than conjecture and/or wishful thinking. Those on both sides of the debate then tend to give credence only to findings that support there own preconceived notions.
This is not true of everyone of course. I have had some lengthy exchanges with some very objective folks who are willing to look at both sides of the evidence even if they basically believe Brushy was a fraud. I just think a final consensus on all this will likely never happen. It would take DNA evidence. If Hamilton, TX could verify the real burial place of Brushy and allow an exhumation, his DNA could be compared to known Roberts family descendants. If he was actually Billy The Kid, the mitochondria DNA (handed down from the mother) would not match the DNA of descendants of Sarah Elizabeth Roberts. That would definitively prove he was "not" the Olover Roberts born in 1879. If it did match, we'd have proof he was Olover and not Billy The Kid. Maybe, just maybe, one day, they'll allow that test. And then, maybe, Silver City would allow the exhumation of Catherine Bonney. If she was indeed Brushy's half aunt as he claimed, their mitochondrial DNA would match and we'd have undeniable proof that would change all the history books. Silver City has said they would not allow her exhumation unless their was evidence to justify it. Yes, I know there is a question whether the Catherine Bonney marker is in the right place, but if there was a match, we'd know it was her.
I'm rambling. But thanks for the very insightful comments.
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Post by cassandra jane on Feb 13, 2014 13:35:41 GMT -5
Brett Hall's book "The Real Billy The Kid - Alias Brushy Bill Roberts" contains a footnote #171 that describes the military record of one William H. Roberts of Texas as a member of Troop L of the Rough Riders and says he was assigned to train horses. I've never been able to find this record anywhere and even though I asked Brett to help me, he never got back to me with where to see it. Some have suggested his statements regarding such a record are fictitious. Well! I just found a copy of a record showing a William "G" Roberts of the Texas Cavalry in Troop L. If you use a little imagination that "G" could have been an unusual way of writing the letter "H". Thought I'd share what I found. What do some of you think? Could that middle initial be an unusual "H"? I'll tell you this much for certain. There is no record of an Oliver Roberts in the Spanish American War with or without the middle initial "P" or any other initial. I think the twisted handwriting is plausible - from personal experience. My grandfather's handwriting where his 'r's, 'l's and 'h's is often illegible and he has to be asked regularly what such a word says because he writes those letters out in a very similar way to each other, and not too different to the signature scan you've provided us with either. So, generally? I'd say it's certainly a possibility, though I would be tempted towards if it isn't a 'g' (which I'm not entirely convinced on) it was a rushed attempt at writing out his signature. And if it is a 'g', and was indeed Brushy/Billy, do we have any basis on which he may have taken the 'g' from another name/alias?
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 13, 2014 16:17:38 GMT -5
I've never seen any indication he ever used the letter G as a middle initial, but Morrison did state that Brushy had used numerous alias's over the years. And it is certainly reasonable to think he might have just changed the middle initial by one letter when he joined the Rough Riders, "just in case" somebody figured out who William H. Roberts really was.
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Post by Roy Haws on Mar 21, 2014 12:55:46 GMT -5
Thank you Wayne Land for creating this blog. I have recently taken up renewed interest in the Brushy Bill story as I am actually related although a ways off. My gg mother was Martha Vada Roberts and I guess that now since I am retired, I thought I would attempt to become thoroughly versed on the topic. It's quite a chore though since there is much written on the topic, so I have to work for awhile to digest it all. My mom, Eulaine Goff Haws worked with Tunstill in the writing of his book and actually met Brushy Bill when she was a child and he was visiting in my home town of Jacksonville, TX (He was going by the name of Oliver L Roberts at that time...and members of the family did not believe he was the actual Billy The Kid) ... Billy And Me Are the Same. Right now, I'm reading the various books and trying to make sense of the conflicts and claims. I will in my spare time now (since I am retired) to try to make sense out of it all. With the few books I have read thus far, I am currently leaning toward the idea that he was indeed the real Billy The Kid...although, I could be biased due to the psychology of subconsciously desiring that one of my relations was the infamous outlaw. :-) At the moment, however, I will remain undecided as I tend to be an analytical person by training during my lifetime.
Anyway....I might post some as time goes along (provided you are still working on all of this) and am very interested in anything that turns up as far as new documentation is concerned.
Again...thank you for creating this blog and thanks for the dates given on Brushy Bill's past marriages. My wife does a lot of genealogy research and this will be helpful.
Roy Haws
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 23, 2014 10:43:12 GMT -5
Roy,
It's a great thrill to have descendants of people who were actually involved now visiting my message board. And an honor to know that I've provided a platform that is respected enough to allow that. I'll be looking forward with great anticipation to any postings you place.
Have any of your family members ever mentioned your GG mother Martha's specific opinion about who Brushy was? I've read that when Brushy returned to Texas in the early 1900's, the real Oliver's mother Mary Elizabeth believed he was her son Oliver who would have been Martha's brother and that Martha's husband insisted that was not the case. The story goes that Brushy, and I would have to assume the rest of the family, went along with the ruse in order to appease Mary Elizabeth. I'd love to know if any of that has been discussed by descendants.
I probably shouldn't bring this up right off the bat here but you may not be aware of the efforts to exhume Brushy in order to obtain DNA. Actually a few years back, the city of Hamilton was petitioned to do exactly that and they refused. I was told by Dr. Jannay Valdez who was present at the meeting, that the reason was they needed a family member to authorized it and the only person there who "claimed" to be a family member was opposed to the exhumation. In fact, she probably isn't really related to Brushy. If a descendant like yourself though were to request it and be willing to provide DNA for comparison, we could know whether Brushy really was Oliver Pleasant Roberts. If it turned out he was not, then his claim of being Billy The Kid would have to be considered much more credible.
I'm not 100% sure regarding your family lineage but mitochondrial DNA is passed on only from the mother to her offspring. If Eulaine Goff Haws's mother was the daughter of Martha Vada then you would carry the same mitochondrial DNA as the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts but not the same as William Henry Roberts (Brushy's claimed identity and Billy The Kid's real name). William Henry Roberts would have had a different mother from Oliver Pleasant.
If you might be interested in pursuing this, I suggest you should speak to Steve Sederwall, former Sheriff of Lincoln County. I've spoken to him in the past and he is very personable and continues to have an open mind as to Brushy's claim. Of course there is one other caveat. DNA comparisons are costly and we would have to find someone or some agency willing to fund it.
If you're interested in that, I can try to help get the ball rolling. Please accept my apology if I've assumed to much here. I would have sent this to you in a private message but since you posted as a guest I didn't know your email. I hope you'll join the board as a member and keep us posted on anything you find out and I certainly understand if you wouldn't want to get so heavily involved as to participate in an attempt to match DNA.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 5, 2014 16:31:57 GMT -5
Smoking Gun? Maybe, even though the unbelievers will never acknowledge it. Please someone tell me why, oh why, would the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts tell the census taker in 1910 that he was born in Texas and that both his parents were born in Kentucky. Here's the image.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 5, 2014 18:18:10 GMT -5
Can anyone help me with the true identity of Henry Oliver Roberts' wife. Some have her maiden name as Cheshir or Cheshier, the daughter of John Cheshir and Nancy Womack. But the only child that couple had born in 1856 is listed on the censuses as either Sarah Conway Cheshir or "Sallie" Conway Cheshir. Nowhere is the name Elizabeth shown. Some seem to think her maiden name was Cheshir and she first married a Ferguson before Henry O. Roberts and actually have her listed in their family tree as Sarah Elizabeth Conway Cheshir Ferguson Roberts. I'm not buying that. I'd sure like to find out who she really was. Is it possible the "cousin" Brushy referred to was "her" nephew?
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Post by MissyS on May 6, 2014 3:32:48 GMT -5
You're so right. The unfortunate fact is that almost everyone who researches this goes into it with a mindset one way or the other. Then information that is not found in any recorded document is used to support theory that is really nothing more than conjecture and/or wishful thinking. Those on both sides of the debate then tend to give credence only to findings that support there own preconceived notions. This is not true of everyone of course. I have had some lengthy exchanges with some very objective folks who are willing to look at both sides of the evidence even if they basically believe Brushy was a fraud. I just think a final consensus on all this will likely never happen. It would take DNA evidence. If Hamilton, TX could verify the real burial place of Brushy and allow an exhumation, his DNA could be compared to known Roberts family descendants. If he was actually Billy The Kid, the mitochondria DNA (handed down from the mother) would not match the DNA of descendants of Sarah Elizabeth Roberts. That would definitively prove he was "not" the Olover Roberts born in 1879. If it did match, we'd have proof he was Olover and not Billy The Kid. Maybe, just maybe, one day, they'll allow that test. And then, maybe, Silver City would allow the exhumation of Catherine Bonney. If she was indeed Brushy's half aunt as he claimed, their mitochondrial DNA would match and we'd have undeniable proof that would change all the history books. Silver City has said they would not allow her exhumation unless their was evidence to justify it. Yes, I know there is a question whether the Catherine Bonney marker is in the right place, but if there was a match, we'd know it was her. I'm rambling. But thanks for the very insightful comments. Did someone say that a family member or someone else had a trunk that belonged to Brushy and that there were two of his extracted teeth inside?, If so could DNA be extracted from them? I seen one time on forensic files DNA was extracted from a tooth to identify a person it was an old tooth too, I don't remember how?,, but if those teeth can be located and confirmed somehow to be Brushy's then exhuming his body may not be necessary, just a thought.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 6, 2014 19:49:46 GMT -5
Excellent point. Yes indeed!
I've read there was a jar inside that trunk that contained his teeth. I don't know if that is true and if it is, I don't know where they'd be now. The trunk is on display in Hico, TX in the museum there. The lady who runs the museum told me the contents of the trunk had been removed by Frederic Bean. He was the historian who provided the transcripts for Jameson's books. Those notebooks and medals of Brushy's were allegedly kept in that trunk before Brushy's death and the trunk and it's contents were passed on to Melinda Roberts, Brushy's widow. Then allegedly her Grandson, or was it a Great Nephew I think, eventually ended up with the stuff from the trunk. Somewhere along the way the trunk was donated to the museum in Hico.
There are photos of the medals and photocopies of some of the writings from his notebook but there are no photos or hard evidence that the teeth in the jar was anything more than a rumor. Wish I knew. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.
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Post by MissyS on May 7, 2014 10:02:30 GMT -5
Wayne, since tracking down those teeth will be too difficult, what about letters Brushy mailed?, could the postage stamps have his DNA from saliva? Or the envelope itself when sealed?, I know that would be a slim chance too because people will say if his wife wrote the letters for him she may have posted them and sealed them too? But there may be a letter someone maybe a family member may have where an envelope addresses in his hand that they can confirm is his handwriting and the gluey part of the envelope or stamp can be used for DNA? I'm just thinking of a way to get around exhumation.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 10, 2014 18:45:21 GMT -5
It's been awhile since I started this thread and no one has answered my initial question. I know there are people viewing this board who do not believe Brushy was Billy The Kid. They believe he was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born in 1879 in Arkansas, father from Texas and mother from Arkansas. So I just want to ask again. Somebody tell me why, on the 1910 census, long before he ever claimed to be Billy, why would he report he was born in Texas, father and mother both in Kentucky. The same story he told Morrison nearly 40 years later. In what scenario does that make any sense other than the very real possibility he really was born in Texas, and parents in Kentucky?
I'm waiting!
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es335
2 - 19 Posts
Posts: 2
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Post by es335 on Oct 16, 2014 16:46:14 GMT -5
Hello, Wayne.This is my first post, but I've been following this discussion for a couple of years now. I've been an avid reader of Billy the Kid history for many years, and I'm a firm believer that Brushy was,in fact, Billy the Kid.However, the most nagging problem for me was the claim that he was really Oliver Pleasant Roberts.I remember reading that Oliver P.'s sister flatly denied that Brushy was her brother (in other words, that Brushy was not Oliver Pleasant).Despite this, I still had some doubts because skeptics pointed out that Oliver P. had wives with the same names as women that Brushy later claimed were HIS wives, such as Mollie and Louticia. Your discovery of that 1910 census report has finally resolved this issue for me!It all makes sense now!I think you're absolutely correct to point out that the discrepancy between the 1900 and 1910 census is best explained by Brushy's claims. The discoveries made by 44Colt were also truly amazing!On a personal note, I want to commend you for the way you respond to everyone, whether they are pro-Brushy or not. If everyone handled debates with the dignity and class that you display, the world would be a much better place.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 17, 2014 0:07:46 GMT -5
ES335,
Thank you for the comments. It means a great deal to me to know that readers of the board find it a place for a fair and honest debate. I hope you'll continue to post and get involved in the conversation. Thanks.
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Post by Rollie Taylor on Dec 18, 2014 19:51:02 GMT -5
BRUSHY BILL ROBERTS TIMELINE
Brushy Bill Roberts (Ollie L, Roberts) was Oliver Pleasant Roberts who claimed to be Billy the Kid Oliver Pleasant Roberts was only 3 years old when Sheriff Pat Garrett killed Billy the Kid, and Ollie was obviously not Billy the Kid. Born 26 August 1878 (WWI Draft Registration Card, signature Oliver Pleasant Roberts). 1880 AR census, Sebastian Co. Olover Roberts, age 1, in the household of his parents, Henry and Elizabeth Roberts. 1900 TX census, Hopkins Co. Oliver P. Roberts, 20, born August 1879, is single and lives in the household of his parents, Henry O. and Sarah E. Roberts. (Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts are buried in the Hillcrest Cemery, Canton, Van Zandt County, Texas) 1909, Van Zandt Co, TX. O. P. Roberts married Anna Lee 11 July 1909 1910 TX census, Van Zandt Co. Oliver P. Roberts and Anna have been married less than a year and have no children. 1910, Van Zandt Co, TX, Oliver Roberts divorced Anna 10 November 1910. (Anna Lee married Jessie Lecil Barnes 26 Jan 1913 in Van Zandt County) 1912, Van Zandt Co, TX. Oliver P. Roberts married Mollie Brown 21 August 1912. 1918. Oliver Pleasant Roberts registered for the draft 12 September 1918 and listed Mollie Roberts of Arkinda, AR, as his nearest relative. 1919, Little River Co, AR. Oliver Roberts buried Mollie Brown Roberts in Pauley Cemetery, Cerra Gordo, in February 1919. 1920 TX census, Van Zandt Co. Oliver P. Roberts, 40, is a widower boarding in the household of James C. and Allie Murff. Oliver later married Allie Isaac Murff's mother Lutecia Ballard, widow of Abraham Isaac. 1930 TX census, Van Zandt Co. Oliver Roberts, 52, and Lutisha, 57, live alone. 1940 TX census, Gregg Co. Ollie Roberts 70, and Louticia, 65, have lived in Gregg County for at least 5 years. 1944, Van Zandt Co, TX. Oliver Roberts buried Louticia Ballard Isaac in the Starr Cemetery in June. 1945, Hamilton Co, TX. Oliver Roberts married Malinda Elizabeth Murrell, widow of James Thomas Allison. 1949, Hamilton Co, TX. Ollie Roberts tells William V. Morrison that he is Billy the Kid 1949, Lincoln Co, NM Ollie Roberts and William V. Morrison go to New Mexico to verify Ollie's claim 1949, Meramec Caverns, Missouri. Ollie Roberts and Ola Everhard went to Meramec Caverns for J. Frank Dalton's birthday. 1950, New York, New York. Ollie Roberts traveled to New York City with J. Frank Dalton as a witness to support J. Frank Dalton's claim that he was Jesse Woodson James 1950 Santa Fe, NM Ollie Roberts and William V. Morrison meet with Gov. Thomas J. Mabry 29 November 1950 Ollie Roberts died 27 December 1950 in Hico, Hamilton County, Texas 1950 Malinda E. Roberts signed the death certificate as informant.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 19, 2014 17:36:17 GMT -5
All very informative but there are some discrepancies. Most importantly, nothing here proves Brushy Bill was actually Oliver Pleasant Roberts. It only proves there was an Oliver Pleasant Roberts and that Brushy represented himself to be Oliver from around 1909/10 up until he told William Morrison who he really was.
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