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Post by texas truth teller on Nov 28, 2023 0:09:06 GMT -5
Might as well introduce myself to this group. I signed up yesterday and I think I am a member now. I've been posting re:Billy for several years now, but I stopped a few years ago. I am not a spring chicken and I fumble along with computers. Am far from confident on them. I am a McCarty. My family has for generations said that we are related to the Kid. His father being the brother of my great, great grandfather, Elijah McCarty. He died in 1929. My dad knew him well. My dad died in 1997. According to my family Billy's dad was John McCarty who died in Andersonville on 6 Nov 1864 (65?). You can look him up. You can even see a pic of his headstone in that prison. I own a great many tintype photographs that I found within a collection once owned by Sallie Lucy Chisum. They are of her family (Chisums) and friends including most of the Regulators. I've posted most of my pictures several years ago, can't find them now , but I still own the originals...Sixty of them. Two nice pics of the Kid and all of the Regulators cept Fred Waite. Nice pics of Frank MacNab among the rest. I've got a few of the House Ring: J.J. Dolan and Bob Olinger posed with Lily Casey to whom he was engaged to marry. Anyway, you do not have to believe me. I'm just say'n hello. Steve McCarty. Can you clarify who died in 1929? Your great great granddad or Billy’s alleged dad? thumbuster, is Elijah McCarty, buried in Caddo County, OK, your great-great-grandfather?
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Post by thumbuster on Nov 29, 2023 0:07:53 GMT -5
Welcome to the board Steve, already a few post in and very interesting! I visited the Ruidoso River Museum a few years ago. Met Drew Gomer there. (did I spell Drew's name right?) On display there were a few 1877 Colts, I think Lightenings (.38 Long Colt caliber). I also saw a well worn, heavily rusted Winchester 73 with a 3/4 length magazine. The firing pin and hammer had been removed. The caption on the display said that Pat Garrett had confiscated the rifle from the Kid when he was captured at Stinking Springs. He brought the rifle home, removed some parts and gave it to his kids to use as a plaything. I own a picture taken of the Kid, Deluvina, Paulita and Billy's dog (probably) that shows the kid holding a 3/4 length magazine Winchester rifle. It looks brand new. Probably the very same gun. Those kinds of Winchesters are rare you know. They don't just pop up here and there.
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Post by thumbuster on Nov 29, 2023 0:13:29 GMT -5
BTW; I am not a fan of the tale that Brushy is the Kid. I see that it appears that he and his story about being the kid is popular here. Making that decision is totally up to you as far as I am concerned and it does not bother me one way or the other. It is, after all, a free country.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 29, 2023 13:04:36 GMT -5
Welcome to the board Steve. I'm looking forward to reading more of whatever you can share with us.
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Post by thumbuster on Nov 29, 2023 21:04:12 GMT -5
My family's tradition states that Billy would be my first cousin four times removed. I think that is how it goes. I wish I could figure out how to post my pics of the Kid, and others. I've got several tintypes of Sallie Lucy Chisum and one where she is posed with her first husband, Bill Robert. One of the most notable elements in the Kid was his dynamic, enthusiastic personality. Everyone in my McCarty clan love being on stage. We enjoy intertaining. So did Billy. I don't see any of that kind of personality in Brushy. Course all I see of him are photographs. Nor does Brushy look anything like any of the McCarty's that I know. I don't care if anyone wants to believe that Brushy is Billy. But I don't believe it.
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Nov 29, 2023 21:36:52 GMT -5
My family's tradition states that Billy would be my first cousin four times removed. I think that is how it goes. I wish I could figure out how to post my pics of the Kid, and others. I've got several tintypes of Sallie Lucy Chisum and one where she is posed with her first husband, Bill Robert. One of the most notable elements in the Kid was his dynamic, enthusiastic personality. Everyone in my McCarty clan love being on stage. We enjoy intertaining. So did Billy. I don't see any of that kind of personality in Brushy. Course all I see of him are photographs. Nor does Brushy look anything like any of the McCarty's that I know. I don't care if anyone wants to believe that Brushy is Billy. But I don't believe it. If one ignores the entire genesis of Morrison's story with Brushy Bill Roberts, and looks at collective tales and reminisces and newspaper articles on him there is a more complete synopsis of his personality. He did seem to be outgoing, talkative, and loved being in the spotlight. After all he was in the newspapers quite a lot from 1916 onwards talking about being an Indian fighter, owning a traveling Wild West Show, traveling the country, and giving shooting demonstrations. He seemed to be the kind of man who loved telling stories, engaging with people, telling jokes, etc. I don't think he was this quiet, hidden, hermit-like figure that hes often portrayed as being. So, personality wise I think he was more like The Kid than not. Although personally I don't believe the story for various reasons, I just wanted to clear up that he was a "being on stage" kind of individual. 👍 Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 29, 2023 22:44:45 GMT -5
Thumbuster - in order to post an image do not click "Post Quick Reply". Instead, you need to press the "Reply" button. It is in the upper right corner of the Quick Reply box. A window will open with a series of icons across the top. Find the one that says "Insert Image". It's the 7th one from the right. Assuming you have scans of the images, locate your image on your hard drive and add any text you wish into the window. Then click "Create Post". Let me know if you need more help. We'd all love to see your images.
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Post by thumbuster on Nov 29, 2023 22:57:20 GMT -5
Can you clarify who died in 1929? Your great great granddad or Billy’s alleged dad? thumbuster, is Elijah McCarty, buried in Caddo County, OK, your great-great-grandfather? YES! How'd you find his grave? I have only seen it once and that when I was about four years old. Elijah's son was Eli McCarty who is my great grandfather. I knew him, but not well. He died, as I recall in 1954. His son was Joseph Franklin McCarty. He a dentist in Bucklin, Kansas. I visited him in a hospital a week or so before he died. That in 1964 (I think.) My father is Harold Eugene McCarty B. 1921. He died in 1997. He was a Pan American captain flying the huge Boeing 747. Interestingly my grandfather McCarty was a close friend of Dr. O.H. Simpson who was a dentist in Dodge City, Kansas. Dr. Simpson was the brother of Inez Simpson. Inez was the wife of Walter Pitzer Chisum, who was Sallie Lucy Chisum's brother. She, of course, knew Billy and some write that they were an item. I don't think so. She married William Robert. They had two children, boys, John E. (named after his father's father, who was a banker in Pritz, Germany) and Theodore (can't recall his middle name) Robert. Elijah McCarty died in 1929. His son, maybe Billy's dad was John McCarty who died in Andersonville prison. Interestingly pictures that I have of Billy show him looking like my grandfather's (Joe)'s twin.
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Nov 29, 2023 23:02:40 GMT -5
thumbuster, is Elijah McCarty, buried in Caddo County, OK, your great-great-grandfather? YES! How'd you find his grave? I have only seen it once and that when I was about four years old. Elijah's son was Eli McCarty who is my great grandfather. I knew him, but not well. He died, as I recall in 1954. His son was Joseph Franklin McCarty. He a dentist in Bucklin, Kansas. I visited him in a hospital a week or so before he died. That in 1964 (I think.) My father is Harold Eugene McCarty B. 1921. He died in 1997. He was a Pan American captain flying the huge Boeing 747. Interestingly my grandfather McCarty was a close friend of Dr. O.H. Simpson who was a dentist in Dodge City, Kansas. Dr. Simpson was the brother of Inez Simpson. Inez was the wife of Walter Pitzer Chisum, who was Sallie Lucy Chisum's brother. She, of course, knew Billy and some write that they were an item. I don't think so. She married William Robert. They had two children, boys, John E. (named after his father's father, who was a banker in Pritz, Germany) and Theodore (can't recall his middle name) Robert. Elijah McCarty died in 1929. His son, maybe Billy's dad was John McCarty who died in Andersonville prison. Interestingly pictures that I have of Billy show him looking like my grandfather's (Joe)'s twin. My 4th great grandfather John H. Defibaugh died in Andersonville too. He was listed as "JJ Davenbrook," which no doubt was a misunderstanding by the census taker as Defibaugh means 'deep running water' such as a brook. The name is also Devereaux in French. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by thumbuster on Nov 29, 2023 23:16:20 GMT -5
Billy: Have you visited Andersonville? It is in the middle of Georgia. I've been there half a dozen times starting in 1967, or thereabouts. I was stationed for a time at Fort Benning which was about a three hour drive from Andersonville so I went to that place many times, often bringing a few of my troops along. On the way I'd drive by Jimmie Carter's house house in Plains, GA. Billy Carter, his brother's gas station was about next door to the President's house. (do you remember Billy Beer?)
Andersonville is pretty much a large open field, but many of the old landmarks remain. Also a museum and some monuments. There is a bit of new log wall, built like the original which is long gone. The cemetery is still there and 13,000 gravestones. The Red Cross started there. (Can't think of her name...the lady who started it...Sara Barton??) She worked with a guy who had recorded the names of the dead. He probably made some misspellings. I found John McCarty's grave. He my great great uncle and maybe Billy's dad.
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Nov 29, 2023 23:26:54 GMT -5
Billy: Have you visited Andersonville? It is in the middle of Georgia. I've been there half a dozen times starting in 1967, or thereabouts. I was stationed for a time at Fort Benning which was about a three hour drive from Andersonville so I went to that place many times, often bringing a few of my troops along. On the way I'd drive by Jimmie Carter's house house in Plains, GA. Billy Carter, his brother's gas station was about next door to the President's house. (do you remember Billy Beer?) Andersonville is pretty much a large open field, but many of the old landmarks remain. Also a museum and some monuments. There is a bit of new log wall, built like the original which is long gone. The cemetery is still there and 13,000 gravestones. The Red Cross started there. (Can't think of her name...the lady who started it...Sara Barton??) She worked with a guy who had recorded the names of the dead. He probably made some misspellings. I found John McCarty's grave. He my great great uncle and maybe Billy's dad. No, unfortunately I've never been, but I do belong to an Andersonville group on Facebook and uploaded my 4th great grandfather's picture because genealogists never knew what he looked like. For that matter nobody is quite certain who his actual parents were, though genealogists have speculated 3 different couples. I've been doing my own research on the matter. And hey perhaps you hold the answers. I've never quite bought into "Michael McCarty" or "Patrick McCarty" or necessarily the New York origin stories or the alleged birthdates of Billy and Joseph. There's still speculation whether a sister named Bridget existed, etc. So far as i'm concerned it's all wide open. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by thumbuster on Nov 30, 2023 0:40:27 GMT -5
In an interview with Mr. Haley, Deluvina said that the story that she was there and went in with a candle to see if Billy was dead was not true. I did not see Billy the night after he was killed, but saw him the following morning. Garrett, Poe and Pete all said that Billy had a gun. Garrett and Poe said it was a .41 Colt Double Action. I have a copy of a report to the county commissioners where Garrett tells them he has the guns and ask what to do with them. They told him to sell them. The pistol was said to have gone to Billy Burt in Lincoln and it was said he sold it, but no one knows where it went to. A museum in Arkansas thinks they have the pistol. I have pictures of it but question if it belonged to Billy. There is a story about Billy trading a chuck wagon cook his pistol for a .41 Colt on or about July 4, 1881. Billy wanted try it out and said he would return it but was killed on July 14, 1881. I have pictures of the pistol said to have belong to Billy and the story of the trade. It was in the museum in Ruidoso for a few years but has been returned to the owner. Who knows if it is true. Again, I do have a copy of Garrett's report on the pistol and a rifle taken off of Billy in 1881. nmjames I own a Colt 1877 Lightening. My pistol was not the Kid's. It's serial number shows it made in 1905. Mine works fine. Those '77 Colts have a very long, creeky trigger pull. They are known to break easily and it is said they are nearly impossible to repair. I have never shot mine. The Lightening round looks about like a modern 38 Special, but it is not and shooting a 38 Special in one is not smart. I have never held a Thunderer, but they look similar. Mark Lee Gardner in his book, "To Hell on a Fast Horse" tells a story of how the Kid acquired his Colt '77, a Lightening. He cheated Padre Polaco out of it. To me, the Colt Lightening fells good in my hand and it points well. I also own the old holster. I can see Billy using a shooter like that. But a Colt SAA is much more reliable. Billy would have preferred a gun he could rely upon.....I think.
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Post by thumbuster on Nov 30, 2023 0:49:01 GMT -5
If Billy used a Colt Lightening or Thunderer I wonder if he used one to kill Texas Red. As the story goes he was walking out of the Saloon when Texas Red, standing behind him pulled his pistol and Billy heard the sound of the hammer being cocked. Quick as a cat Billy drew his pistol, turned and put two rounds into the Texan's chin. The bullets pierced his neck and severed his spine. He fell kicking. Did Billy use a double action pistol to get off such quick shots? I wonder.
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