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Post by rdouglasc on Jun 7, 2012 16:01:55 GMT -5
Hello everyone. If Garrett killed Billy, wouldn't there be death photos or a public display of his body? I'm thinking both were common with outlaws at that time.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 7, 2012 18:03:38 GMT -5
Hello rdouglasc and welcome.
I will answer your question with a question. Where are the death photos of Thomas O'Folliard, Charlie Bowdre, Tunstall, McSween, Brady, Hindman, Joe Grant, Chapman, Bell, Olinger and many of the others of the Lincoln Co. War. Death photos in this area were not that common.
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Post by rdouglasc on Jun 7, 2012 18:27:55 GMT -5
I thought they were pretty common when an outlaw was killed especially one as well known as Billy The Kid. For instance Jesse James. People even posed with his body. I'm pretty new to this history but its something that crossed my mind.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 7, 2012 23:04:52 GMT -5
rdouglasc,
I don't think there were any photographers in Fort Sumner when Billy was killed. Las Vegas, NM. may have had one but it was to far away. Then again there was not a picture taken of Billy when Garrett took him to Las Vegas or Santa Fe.
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Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Jun 8, 2012 6:38:46 GMT -5
John Graham, alias John Collins, who rode with the Kid in the Rustlers and was a resident of Fort Sumner, he helped dig the grave for the man Garrett killed, and claimed that the corpse was not that of Billy the Kid. ;D How do you explain this?
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Post by nmjames on Jun 8, 2012 7:16:11 GMT -5
Billy,
A few years back I did a lot of research on John Graham, John Collins, and Caleb Hall. I was in contact with John Graham's kin and even found his grave for them in El Paso.
The story of John Collins stated with a man that moved to Carlsbad, NM. by the name of Ben Kemp. He is buried in Carlsbad. I have copies of a few of his letters between him and Rasch. I also have copies of letters from Caleb Halls kin to Mr. Rasch.
The fact is that there is way more to prove that Caleb Hall was the John Collins of the Lincoln Co. War than John Graham. He is named by people that knew him and in records. I also don't think that John Graham was in the area until 1882. I also do not find John Collins in Fort Sumner when Billy was killed.
I don't think Billy rode with the Rustlers. That was John Selmans bunch. Caleb Hall was said to have been thier first leader.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 8, 2012 12:52:56 GMT -5
According to this quote from a previous post by a member of this board, "CurlyBillGraham", John Collins was not Caleb Hall.
<<Fredrick Nolan's book, The Lincoln County War, a documentary History REVISED, page 564 and 381 clarifies Caleb Hall, alias Sam Collins as the prowler. Page 318 and 345 Nolan names John Collins joining John Selman gang and singing hungry. Caleb Hall and John Collins have been fused as one and the same man fighting in the Lincoln County War far too long. Three Cheers for Nolan!!! John Collins son Henry was interviewed by Lou Blachly. In the interview Blachly asks Henry which side of the Lincoln County War did his father fight on. Henry said his father fought in and all during the Lincoln County War on the Chisum side, the McSween side. He said his father knew them all on both sides and states that his father was living in the area 5 years before the Lincoln County War. John Collins is the same man that said he help dig the grave of the man Garrett shot and killed and that man was not Billy the Kid. John Collins was pals with William H. Bonney. >>
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Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Jun 8, 2012 13:08:23 GMT -5
Thanks you Mr Wayne and I want you to see this, I tired to show you it many times, I found something funny in the many months that followed after Billy was allegedly killed. It actually took Pat Garrett so long to collect the official reward money that was offered for the Kid, although he applied for it almost immediately after the alleged killing of the Kid, it was not granted to him until Feb. 18, 1882! Acting Governor W. G. Ritch, who was essential in getting the reward offered in the first place, did virtually everything in his power, trying to find any viable loophole, to get out of paying. Could it be that the officials doubted the Kid was really dead, or was it simply a case of cheap and/or crooked politicians trying to demur from their obligations? What follows next caused my jaw to drop: In Aug. 1882, one year and a month after Billy was allegedly killed, Garrett encountered Joe Antrim, Billy's brother, at a hotel in Trindad, Colorado. Although there had been earlier reports, perhaps unfounded, that Joe was seeking vengeance on Garrett, the two retired to a private room and talked for nearly two hours about something. Following their meeting, the two shook hands and parted amicably. What did the two discuss in private? How was Garrett able to get this man, who allegedly wanted revenge for the death of his brother, to part with him on such friendly terms?
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Post by nmjames on Jun 8, 2012 15:05:15 GMT -5
Wayne,
I have talked to Mr. Nolan on Collins and what he sent me is very different than what you are stating.
I will look into Lou Blachly. I have a lot of material on John Collins and disagree. I don't have time to go into all of it now but will later.
Thanks for the Name.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 8, 2012 15:10:02 GMT -5
Here's a link to a fairly long Wikipedia article on Collins. You might want to read this. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_John_CollinsAlso take a look at this page. A few years ago, I exchanged several emails with Ms. Carolyn Buckley and she relayed stories handed down in the family regarding "Shotgun Collins". I can't find those old emails unfortunately. captyak.tripod.com/shotguncollins/
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 8, 2012 15:25:47 GMT -5
Sorry, here's one more article that gives even more detail on the life of Shotgun Collins, also known as John Graham, including his claim that Garrett shot the wrong man. It also points out that Sam Collins was Caleb Hall, a completely different person. www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=27625497
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Post by nmjames on Jun 8, 2012 19:21:38 GMT -5
Wayne,
I don't even know where to start with you on John Collins. I don't think I will even try. The stuff above is the same old suff from a few years back. I do want to look into Lou Blachly though. That is a name I have run across. I looked the name up and didn't find any thing on Henry Collins. Do you know where I can find the article?
Thanks
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Post by brianthedude on Jun 11, 2012 9:49:21 GMT -5
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Post by brianthedude on Jun 11, 2012 9:54:41 GMT -5
Found this and the above photo in "Cow Dust and Saddle Leather" by Kemp and Dykes, 1968:
(pg. 74) "During this time Henry Cox's daughter, Tibitha, married a cowboy by the name of John Collins. Later the family learned that Collins had been a friend of Billy the Kid. He had warned the Kid against going to Pete Maxwell's house in Fort Sumner on the night of July 14, 1881, when Sheriff Pat Garrett supposedly killed him. Collins claimed that the next day he helped bury the corpse of the man Garrett killed, and it was not Billy the Kid."
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Post by MissyS on Sept 6, 2019 20:08:32 GMT -5
In the March,1980 issue of Frontier Times Magazine there's an article by Ben W. Kemp, a very interesting read, according to it John Graham alias John Collins was Kemp's uncle, according to the article for the rest of Graham's life he steadfastly maintained it was not Billy the Kid that Pat Garrett killed. On July 14th his uncle John was in Fort Sumner when Poe rode in and was posing as a horse buyer, uncle John Graham being a friend of Billy's warned him at Maxwell's sheep camp that Poe was in Sumner, Billy laughed saying he didn't doubt him but he was heading to Maxwell's anyway to get a better horse to head out to Mexico. The next morning John Graham rode into Sumner and was shocked when he was told about the shooting, he couldn't figure out how Billy would ride into the trap, and as the story went and is a bit long, uncle John helped dig the grave for Billy and when the wagon arrived with a crude coffin it was under guard with strict instructions that no one was allowed to open it. The article went on to tell about the killing repeating pretty much the story Garrett told, I won't go into the details of it, but the interesting part was what was said to have happened after the shooting. The body was removed to a work shop and placed on a bench, there was no Doctor's Certificate of Death that he knew of, but he mentioned there was a Coroner's Jury, a man named Fiddling Henry Smith claiming to be an authority on Billy The Kid told the author privately that Billy was in a room in the servants quarters when the man was shot by Garrett, and it was one of the hired help that was shot when he was sent by Billy to get some beef that was hanging on a back porch, when Billy was assured Garrett was sure he killed the Kid, Billy remained hidden in the servants quarters, and during the early morning a crude coffin was made and the body of the hired help was hidden and shortly before the Coroner's Jury arrived the Kid was put in the coffin instead, each member then walked by and saw the face of Billy because the coffin had a square hole at the head of the coffin, seeing it was Billy the Coroner's Jury signed the verdict. It went on to tell another interesting story of a man named Perry Lawson telling Kemp's brother in law that Billy came to his ranch in the summer of 1923, and there was a mention later in this story that Fiddling Henry Smith may have been Billy The Kid??? But according to the shooting account Billy was a stand in for the hired help that was shot. I don't know how much truth in it there is?, but it's a different twist to Brushy's account, as Brushy didn't mention getting into a coffin, also the same photo in the above post of John Graham is also in the magazine.
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