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Post by MissyS on Nov 7, 2021 16:51:26 GMT -5
I was reading about what may have happened to the original four tintypes of Billy the Kid’s famous pose, and I came across something that caught my eye, a mention that the Illustrated Police News may have had one of the four original tintypes because they published an engraving in their Jan 8,1881 issue based upon it, and Las Vegas Chief of Police E. Roberts was credited for the image which he'd gotten from Lincoln County, N. M. , so he had apparently loaned it to the Illustrated Police News. I tried to find information about the Police Chief E. Roberts because of his name, if he was possibly a relative of Brushy? I wondered if there could be a connection with the two because it’s believed E. Roberts somehow obtained one of the four original tintypes and I wondered if it was given to him from Billy/Brushy himself because he was related to him?, or if it was just a coincidence that his name was Roberts? I wasn’t able to find anything, and not knowing his first name or full name it’s difficult to research.  |
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Post by kerry on Nov 7, 2021 18:23:59 GMT -5
I was reading about what may have happened to the original four tintypes of Billy the Kid’s famous pose, and I came across something that caught my eye, a mention that the Illustrated Police News may have had one of the four original tintypes because they published an engraving in their Jan 8,1881 issue based upon it, and Las Vegas Chief of Police E. Roberts was credited for the image which he'd gotten from Lincoln County, N. M. , so he had apparently loaned it to the Illustrated Police News. I tried to find information about the Police Chief E. Roberts because of his name, if he was possibly a relative of Brushy? I wondered if there could be a connection with the two because it’s believed E. Roberts somehow obtained one of the four original tintypes and I wondered if it was given to him from Billy/Brushy himself because he was related to him?, or if it was just a coincidence that his name was Roberts? I wasn’t able to find anything, and not knowing his first name or full name it’s difficult to research. According to the "lost interview" recently found...BTK good - naturely complained about the illustrations in previous editions of the Gazette - it would be just like him to give his last portion of the tin type to the journalist to set the record straight : meanwhile he would have been concentrating on the tunnel they were digging.... |
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Post by MissyS on Nov 8, 2021 12:44:24 GMT -5
I was reading about what may have happened to the original four tintypes of Billy the Kid’s famous pose, and I came across something that caught my eye, a mention that the Illustrated Police News may have had one of the four original tintypes because they published an engraving in their Jan 8,1881 issue based upon it, and Las Vegas Chief of Police E. Roberts was credited for the image which he'd gotten from Lincoln County, N. M. , so he had apparently loaned it to the Illustrated Police News. I tried to find information about the Police Chief E. Roberts because of his name, if he was possibly a relative of Brushy? I wondered if there could be a connection with the two because it’s believed E. Roberts somehow obtained one of the four original tintypes and I wondered if it was given to him from Billy/Brushy himself because he was related to him?, or if it was just a coincidence that his name was Roberts? I wasn’t able to find anything, and not knowing his first name or full name it’s difficult to research. According to the "lost interview" recently found...BTK good - naturely complained about the illustrations in previous editions of the Gazette - it would be just like him to give his last portion of the tin type to the journalist to set the record straight : meanwhile he would have been concentrating on the tunnel they were digging.... You may be on to something Kerry, I didn’t think about that aspect that Billy may have given Police Chief E. Roberts his tintype? It may be how Pat Garrett obtained his tintype of Billy? Since E. Roberts was Chief of Police in Las Vegas, Billy may have handed his tintype over to E. Roberts while he was in jail there to borrow or Billy himself gave instructions to E. Roberts to send it to the Illust. Police News to use for him, and they sent it back to E. Roberts after they made the engraving from it, and E. Roberts may have then sent it on to Lincoln to give back to Billy because he was moved there, and Garrett intercepted it in Lincoln, it’s just a guess, Garrett may have obtained his tintype by taken it from Billy when he arrested him? |
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Post by kerry on Nov 8, 2021 13:35:53 GMT -5
According to the "lost interview" recently found...BTK good - naturely complained about the illustrations in previous editions of the Gazette - it would be just like him to give his last portion of the tin type to the journalist to set the record straight : meanwhile he would have been concentrating on the tunnel they were digging.... You may be on to something Kerry, I didn’t think about that aspect that Billy may have given Police Chief E. Roberts his tintype? It may be how Pat Garrett obtained his tintype of Billy? Since E. Roberts was Chief of Police in Las Vegas, Billy may have handed his tintype over to E. Roberts while he was in jail there to borrow or Billy himself gave instructions to E. Roberts to send it to the Illust. Police News to use for him, and they sent it back to E. Roberts after they made the engraving from it, and E. Roberts may have then sent it on to Lincoln to give back to Billy because he was moved there, and Garrett intercepted it in Lincoln, it’s just a guess, Garrett may have obtained his tintype by taken it from Billy when he arrested him? Don't think BTK worried too much about keeping the tin-type as it wasn't that uncommon to get photographed.... He may have even given Garrett a copy which Pat could have used to show Poe and Mckinney what BTK looked like - but didn't - as they couldn't identify the man who came up to them beside the Maxwell porch a few weeks later ... |
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Post by kerry on Nov 8, 2021 14:09:18 GMT -5
According to the "lost interview" recently found...BTK good - naturely complained about the illustrations in previous editions of the Gazette - it would be just like him to give his last portion of the tin type to the journalist to set the record straight : meanwhile he would have been concentrating on the tunnel they were digging.... You may be on to something Kerry, I didn’t think about that aspect that Billy may have given Police Chief E. Roberts his tintype? It may be how Pat Garrett obtained his tintype of Billy? Since E. Roberts was Chief of Police in Las Vegas, Billy may have handed his tintype over to E. Roberts while he was in jail there to borrow or Billy himself gave instructions to E. Roberts to send it to the Illust. Police News to use for him, and they sent it back to E. Roberts after they made the engraving from it, and E. Roberts may have then sent it on to Lincoln to give back to Billy because he was moved there, and Garrett intercepted it in Lincoln, it’s just a guess, Garrett may have obtained his tintype by taken it from Billy when he arrested him? Perhaps Missy - like Paulita....BTK didn't like the Fort Sumner tin type either(it showed his teeth!) It was hoped that the Garrett family had secreted away some gem such as the tin type - as other families who knew BTK had done....but most likely Pat flicked the photo.into the pot of a poker game for a few dollars - thinking he got a bargain... |
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Post by MissyS on Nov 8, 2021 15:16:21 GMT -5
You may be on to something Kerry, I didn’t think about that aspect that Billy may have given Police Chief E. Roberts his tintype? It may be how Pat Garrett obtained his tintype of Billy? Since E. Roberts was Chief of Police in Las Vegas, Billy may have handed his tintype over to E. Roberts while he was in jail there to borrow or Billy himself gave instructions to E. Roberts to send it to the Illust. Police News to use for him, and they sent it back to E. Roberts after they made the engraving from it, and E. Roberts may have then sent it on to Lincoln to give back to Billy because he was moved there, and Garrett intercepted it in Lincoln, it’s just a guess, Garrett may have obtained his tintype by taken it from Billy when he arrested him? Perhaps Missy - like Paulita....BTK didn't like the Fort Sumner tin type either(it showed his teeth!) It was hoped that the Garrett family had secreted away some gem such as the tin type - as other families who knew BTK had done....but most likely Pat flicked the photo.into the pot of a poker game for a few dollars - thinking he got a bargain... If Billy didn’t like the tintype I don’t think he would have liked the engraving done of it for the Illustrated Police News either, it was worse in my opinion. It would have been smart for Garrett to have made copies of his tintype and sold or gambled off the copies. I read a mention that Garrett told a news reporter in 1902, that he had a tintype of Billy at home, the only one in existence, and on his the way to a train he left it with a photographer to be enlarged for Gen. Lew Wallace because he wanted to use it in an article he was writing. I haven’t been able to locate the article where Garrett said that, or Lew Wallace’s article he wrote, If there was an enlargement made Garrett may have sold it? Garrett may have showed the tintype to Poe and McKinney so they would know what Billy looked like, it would have made sense that he did, but they wouldn’t have recognized him if it was not Billy that walking up to them. If Deluvina’s tintype burned in a fire and Dan Dedrick’s tintype was sold at auction, and Garrett had one, then what happened to the other one of the original tintypes?, was the tintype belonging to E. Roberts believed to have been one of the four? Billy’s pal Dr. Henry Hoyt included a nice clear image of the tintype in his book A Frontier Fighter published in 1929, he may have had one of the four originals or may have used a copy of Deluvina’s tintype as he was in Fort Sumner and treated a family member of the Maxwell’s and may have obtained the copy then?, but I think that may have been well before the book was published. |
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Post by kerry on Nov 8, 2021 15:52:05 GMT -5
Perhaps Missy - like Paulita....BTK didn't like the Fort Sumner tin type either(it showed his teeth!) It was hoped that the Garrett family had secreted away some gem such as the tin type - as other families who knew BTK had done....but most likely Pat flicked the photo.into the pot of a poker game for a few dollars - thinking he got a bargain... If Billy didn’t like the tintype I don’t think he would have liked the engraving done of it for the Illustrated Police News either, it was worse in my opinion. It would have been smart for Garrett to have made copies of his tintype and sold or gambled off the copies. I read a mention that Garrett told a news reporter in 1902, that he had a tintype of Billy at home, the only one in existence, and on his the way to a train he left it with a photographer to be enlarged for Gen. Lew Wallace because he wanted to use it in an article he was writing. I haven’t been able to locate the article where Garrett said that, or Lew Wallace’s article he wrote, If there was an enlargement made Garrett may have sold it? Garrett may have showed the tintype to Poe and McKinney so they would know what Billy looked like, it would have made sense that he did, but they wouldn’t have recognized him if it was not Billy that walking up to them. If Deluvina’s tintype burned in a fire and Dan Dedrick’s tintype was sold at auction, and Garrett had one, then what happened to the other one of the original tintypes?, was the tintype belonging to E. Roberts believed to have been one of the four? Billy’s pal Dr. Henry Hoyt included a nice clear image of the tintype in his book A Frontier Fighter published in 1929, he may have had one of the four originals or may have used a copy of Deluvina’s tintype as he was in Fort Sumner and treated a family member of the Maxwell’s and may have obtained the copy then?, but I think that may have been well before the book was published. Yes - have heard about Pat's story about having the tin type copied for Wallace .. Paulita said many cpoies were made of their tin type....as for the missing one(two) - their best hope of survival would be a junk shop somewhere - anywhere or even ebay - as with some of the other photographs...they don't have to be worth a million dollars to be authentic - its unrealistic to let one person set a standard that,so very few can and would want to meet... |
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Post by kerry on Nov 8, 2021 21:08:47 GMT -5
If Billy didn’t like the tintype I don’t think he would have liked the engraving done of it for the Illustrated Police News either, it was worse in my opinion. It would have been smart for Garrett to have made copies of his tintype and sold or gambled off the copies. I read a mention that Garrett told a news reporter in 1902, that he had a tintype of Billy at home, the only one in existence, and on his the way to a train he left it with a photographer to be enlarged for Gen. Lew Wallace because he wanted to use it in an article he was writing. I haven’t been able to locate the article where Garrett said that, or Lew Wallace’s article he wrote, If there was an enlargement made Garrett may have sold it? Garrett may have showed the tintype to Poe and McKinney so they would know what Billy looked like, it would have made sense that he did, but they wouldn’t have recognized him if it was not Billy that walking up to them. If Deluvina’s tintype burned in a fire and Dan Dedrick’s tintype was sold at auction, and Garrett had one, then what happened to the other one of the original tintypes?, was the tintype belonging to E. Roberts believed to have been one of the four? Billy’s pal Dr. Henry Hoyt included a nice clear image of the tintype in his book A Frontier Fighter published in 1929, he may have had one of the four originals or may have used a copy of Deluvina’s tintype as he was in Fort Sumner and treated a family member of the Maxwell’s and may have obtained the copy then?, but I think that may have been well before the book was published. Yes - have heard about Pat's story about having the tin type copied for Wallace .. Paulita said many cpoies were made of their tin type....as for the missing one(two) - their best hope of survival would be a junk shop somewhere - anywhere or even ebay - as with some of the other photographs...they don't have to be worth a million dollars to be authentic - its unrealistic to let one person set a standard that,so very few can and would want to meet... The implication was : Pat loaned the tin type and it wasn't returned...once again as with Billy Wilson's gun - Pat loaned it (to Tom Powers as security) but long after Pat's death and when Tom died... Pat's wife claimed it was a loan only and wanted it back to then sell it....which suggests they never had the tin type because Pat had lost it --as Pat's wife would have understandably sold the tin type for whatever she could get.... |
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Post by MissyS on Nov 13, 2021 18:37:03 GMT -5
Billy gave two of his tintypes to friends, it would make sense that he would give one to a family member, and keep one for himself. If Pat Garrett confiscated the tintype Billy had on him when he was arrested then I believe E. Roberts may have been a relative? It’s a mystery who he gave the other two tintypes to, and just how E. Roberts and Garrett obtain theirs?, If Pat took it from Billy when he arrested him, or if he obtained his tintype from E. Roberts or if Pat Garrett got his tintype from Celsa his sister- in- law, perhaps Billy gave her one and she loaned it or gave it to her brother- in- law, it’s a guess? Researching E. Roberts is difficult, determining if he was kin to Brushy in some way will be an unanswered question. Hopefully one or both of the original tintypes will show up one day and we’ll know who had it and we’ll know more answers.
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Post by MissyS on Nov 28, 2021 13:36:40 GMT -5
According to Charlie Siringo in the fall of 1878, he had returned to the Panhandle from Chicago, and had found "Billy the Kid" and his gang camped at the L X ranch, he gave
Billy the Kid a fine meerschaum cigar holder, which he had bought in Chicago, and Billy in turn gave him a book containing his autograph. I wonder what book Billy gave Siringo? I wonder if it was a Police Gazette? although I don’t know if Billy would have been featured in it yet in the fall of 1878 or not?
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Post by MissyS on Oct 24, 2023 6:51:47 GMT -5
In the True West magazine there is an interesting article with Mark Lee Gardner about the tintypes, and a mention of Chief Of Police E. Roberts being credited for giving one of the Kid’s tintype photos to the Police Gazette and there’s an Interesting mention that Chief E. Roberts obtained the photo from Bonney’s old home, Lincoln County NM. This bit of information looked to have came from the Police Gazette? If this is true does it mean Chief Of Police E. Roberts took the photo from Billy’s old place of residence and not obtained it from him when arrested? How could he have known the photo was there or where Billy’s old home was? It makes me wonder more if there was a family tie with E. Roberts and Billy the Kid? truewestmagazine.com/article/billy-the-tintype/ |
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WhisperingBillyBarlow
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Post by WhisperingBillyBarlow on Oct 26, 2023 3:42:37 GMT -5
The best bet would be to look up the history of Clark County (Las Vegas) because the police department as we know it today wasn't formed until the early 20th century with Charles Corkhill being the first Sheriff of Clark County from 1909 to 1911. I'm reminded of the movie The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, where I think a lot of people were chiefs or officers but never quite went down in the record books but... it's possible to find a general history of the county from the 1870s or 1880s that might mention him. Mind you, Clark County wasn't officially formed until 1909 as it was previously Lincoln County. I'm reminded of where I grew up, in Ohio, where Auglaize County was formed out of Shelby County. So sometimes it's tricky doing genealogy, etc because things won't show up because the location didn't exist until much later. usgenwebsites.org/NVLincoln/histories/1913history.htmlWhoever was the Sheriff of Lincoln at that time, surely would've had a deputy roster perhaps. I'm going to assume the Sheriff in 1880-1881 would've been W. L. McKee who was elected November 7, 1876, re-elected November 5, 1878, re-elected November 2, 1880. usgenwebsites.org/NVLincoln/histories/1881directory.htmlPerhaps you can navigate the website better than I can because I am on my phone at the moment. But it does show registers for Lincoln County per year, I'm assuming. McKee died February 23rd, 1881. |
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WhisperingBillyBarlow
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Post by WhisperingBillyBarlow on Oct 26, 2023 3:45:09 GMT -5
Wait nvm misread.
I thought you meant Lincoln County NV not Lincoln County NM. But you get the general gist, to find the answers you'd have to look up the actual history of that County and who was registered, etc.
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WhisperingBillyBarlow
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Post by WhisperingBillyBarlow on Oct 26, 2023 4:05:20 GMT -5
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Post by MissyS on Oct 26, 2023 10:55:54 GMT -5
Thanks for the links. It sounds like Police Chief E. Roberts may have been a Police Chief in Las Vegas New Mexico. and I was thinking it possible that he may have been there when Billy the Kid was arrested? I’m not finding much about Police Chief E. Roberts, he may not have been in Las Vegas? I’m wondering what home of Billy’s in Lincoln County? Silver City is Grant County not Lincoln County, so it wouldn’t make sense if it was taken from there. I found an E. Roberts in an 1880 Las Vegas NM Gazette but mentioning him as a director of a band perhaps? It may not be the same person though? chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn93061631/1880-10-28/ed-1/seq-1/print/image_681x648_from_1706%2C569_to_4028%2C2780/ |
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