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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 20, 2012 19:20:45 GMT -5
I feel kinda' dumb for not noticing this more before now, but I've always had a question in my mind about the night Billy was suppose to have been shot by Garrett. Where did the story about putting candles around the body to conduct a "wake" come from if so few people saw the body? How could the wrong body be passed off as Billy if there was indeed a wake held? I've thought well, maybe the body was placed in the coffin before the wake was held, maybe, maybe, maybe.
Then today I was rereading "Billy The Kid: The Lost Interviews" by W.C. Jameson and there it was as clear as day. Don't know how I missed it before. Brushy answered that question in his interviews. He stated the body was wrapped in a sheet so no one would know it wasn't him and then taken to the "carpenter's shop" and buried early in the morning. Duh!!! They wrapped Barlow's body in a sheet, then took it to the carpenter's shop because that's where the coffin was being built. Maybe some candles got lit, maybe not, but once the body left Maxwell's nobody actually saw it. Makes all the sense now and it just never registered with me before. "Carpenter's shop", "Coffin", "Early burial", and now "wrapped in a sheet".
Just thought I'd share that.
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Post by nmjames on Apr 21, 2012 16:38:47 GMT -5
RE: I feel kinda' dumb.
In answer to Brushy's statement. I would like to know where the idea that so few people saw the body comes from. I'm not going to list the people but several people saw Billy's body. As for the story about the "Wake", that came from Poe and others.
There was a Coroner's jury held on the morning of 15 July, 1881. I have a copy of it in English. The org. was in spanish. So I don't know where Brushy got the story that the body was buried early in the morning. Again this is wrong. Think about it. Billy was killed near midnight on July 14. They had to build a coffin, dig a grave in hard ground and I don't think they went out that night and started. The burial was held by many accounts late in the afternoon on the 15th.
Deluvina said she didn't see the body until the next day. July 15. I have a copy of her statement from when we discussed this before. I also went back to see if about Deluvina cursing Garrett and pounding his chest; this is what I found: A sobbing Celsa Gutierrez cursed Garrett and pounded his chest.
I think Morrison said it best in one of his letters; Billy (Brushy) had no education and his mind and memory was failing fast.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 22, 2012 10:49:54 GMT -5
Of course we all know that when a story gets retold, the details can change unintentionally. These comments by Brushy were a retelling of what Frank Lobato had told him about that night. Of course, Billy (Brushy) had already left Sumner before anybody got buried. What I found "telling" about the comments was the mention that Lobato had told him they wrapped the body in a sheet and took it to the carpenter's shop. So if there was a wake and candles, etc., it doesn't necessarily mean they unwrapped the body while it laid there overnight. I still suspect it went into the coffin as soon as the coffin was completed but I had always wondered about the time in between the killing and the placement in the coffin. As you say, it would have taken some time to get that coffin built.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 22, 2012 10:56:58 GMT -5
Didn't Deluvina also say on another occasion that she went into the room with Silva and helped turn the body over and saw it was Billy, immediately after the shooting? Or was that reported by some other person and could that have been Celsa that went in with Silva? If Deluvina changed her story. Why?
Also, I'm sure you've read the reports that there were two coroner's reports and the first one was lost, with the second one being somewhat fabricated by Garrett. Maybe Garrett made sure the first one was lost because it contained information he didn't want made public?
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 22, 2012 10:59:51 GMT -5
Remember Brushy said it was Celsa who came and found him and told him what was going on with the passing off of the body as his.
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Post by nmjames on Apr 22, 2012 12:11:46 GMT -5
Wayne:
Have you ever heard of Jack Hull, Editor - ClovisNews-Journal 1929-1946.
I have a copy of a newspaper article from 1937 where he talked to Frank Labato, Jesus Silva and Deluvina Maxwell. Frank states he was not in Fort Sumner until after Billy was killed and his mother told him most of the story. Jesus states he went into the room but does not say anyone went in with him at first. Deluvina said she went into the room and again states she cleaned and dressed the body the next day. To be fair, the article states they buried Billy at 10:00 in the morning. I have others that state it was late in the afternoon.
I have read all the reports about the two coroner's reports. I have seen the org. of what is called the second one in spanish. The copy I have of it is in English and you can get a copy in Santa Fe. (They charge you for it but I don't remember how much.) I know the story goes that Garrett wrote out the first one and lost it. The second one is more about what they found and Pete Maxwell's statement. The only thing that most people see as odd, is this part:
our verdict is that the deed of said Garrett was justifiable homicide and we are unanimous in the opinion that the gratitude of all the community is due to the said Garrett for his deed and is worthy of being rewarded.
I'm sure you can find all this on line. All over this area you can find newspaper stores, articles books and the stories are a little different. It seems the stories change with time. The main thing that doesn't change is (with the execption of a very few), Billy was killed the night of July 14, 1881.
When I research, I look at many different things. I don't take one statement and go with it. I have files full of documents, I have close to or over 200 books on the LCW. I have met and talked to many people that are truly kin to people that were in the LCW. I even started to research Brushy and went to Hico and Buffalo Gap. It didn't take long to find out Brushy didn't know very much about the LCW.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 22, 2012 15:54:40 GMT -5
It's been years since I was looking into all this extensively but I seem to recall there was an interview at some point with Silva where he stated Lobato was there and I believe there was also a statement in one source that has Lobato himself saying he was there that night. In fact, his changing of his story and Deluvina's changing of hers puts up a flag to me that says they had something to hide.
Yes, Brushy made lots of mistakes in his interviews about the LCW, at least if we accept that the historical record is correct. But he knew so much it's hard to dismiss.
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Post by nmjames on Apr 22, 2012 21:46:15 GMT -5
Wayne,
When I make a statement, I have something to back it up unless I state it is just my thoughts. I also try to research more than one source.
I would love to see your source for the statements. One can always say Silva stated Lobato was their or Lobato himself saying he was there. I'm sure you can find it but then one has to back up and see does it match with other material. Did any of the others that we know were there make the same statements. The trouble with many of the statements is someone will say Lobato said this and Lobato said that. We need to find where Lobato himself makes the statement.
In the newspaper article, Lobato told Jack Hull that he was working on the Old Peg Pen ranch southwest of Melrose at the time Billy was killed.
We can go on and on, back and forth but one needs to look at as many facts as we can find. I have several people tell me Brush knew alot about the LCW. When I ask them, they can't tell me or it's the same old Brushy stories that are wrong. So I go to try and find out as much as I can about Brushy the man. Most of what I find doesn't fit with Billy the Kid. Stories and facts have to be twisted to make them fit. He states he was in Silver City, Oklahoma and other places when we know and have documents as to where Billy was and what dates.
Anyway, I'm open to any true facts.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 22, 2012 23:16:45 GMT -5
From Brett Hall's book, "The Real Billy The Kid"
<<According to supporters of the historical status quo, Frank Lobato was not in the vicinity of Fort Sumner, New Mexico on the evening of July 14, 1881, the night the Kid was purportedly shot and killed by Lincoln County Sheriff Pat F. Garrett. As evidence in support of his claim he cites a second-hand source given to Jack Hull in the late 1930's. However,in an interview with Miguel Antonio Otero, Frank Lobato stated, "Billy the Kid had been stopping with me for several weeks. He came to me after he had escaped from jail in Lincoln, thinking my camp was a safe place. He was with me nearly all the time Pat Garrett was seeking him. We were good friends; Billy would do anything for me and I would do anything for him. He often rode to Fort Sumner at night, but often returned to the camp before daylight. On the night he was killed, he and I went to Fort Sumner together. We were hungry and stopped at Jesus Silva's to eat. Billy wanted some beefsteak and asked Silva if he had any fresh meat. Silva replied that he had none but had helped Pete Maxwell kill a yearling that morning. He told the Kid that he could get all he wanted if he went over to Maxwell's for it. Soon after Billy left we heard two shots from Maxwell's direction, and Silva and I went over immediately. We found a great deal of excitement. Pat Garrett, and two other men whom I did not know, where standing outside the house, rifles in hand, and ready to shoot. Pete Maxwell and the household were standing at the door of Pete's bedroom. Someone had been shot in the bedroom and we were told it was the Kid.">>
Of course, one has to wonder why Lobato says it was "he" rode into Sumner with Billy yet Brushy says it was Billy Barlow who rode in with him. Seems like there are so many discrepancies it becomes an endless, vicious cycle. Hall doesn't say who did the referenced interview with Lobato or when. I'm going to search and see if I can't find some evidence of it elsewhere.
Interesting discussion for sure. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 22, 2012 23:20:45 GMT -5
In another interview with Silva:
<<I ran over there and Garrett, who had run out of the house, told me to go in and see if the Kid was dead. I did, along with Deluvina, and there on the floor was Billy stretched out, face down. We turned him over, and when Deluvina realized fully it was the Kid, she began to cry bitterly, interspersing with her tears the vilest curses she could bestow on the head of Pat Garrett.>>
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 22, 2012 23:23:07 GMT -5
In another interview with Deluvina:
<< “He (Garrett) was afraid to go back to the room to make sure of whom he had shot! I went in and was the first to discover that they had killed my little boy. I hated those men and am glad that I have lived long enough to see them all dead and buried.”>>
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Post by nmjames on Apr 22, 2012 23:30:24 GMT -5
OK,
Find me the same quotes somewhere else beside Brett Hall or any other Brushy person. Also show me where any of the above state it was not Billy the Kid that was killed. We might find different statements at different times but I have never seen Deluvina, Silva, Lobato state that it was not Billy that was killed.
Something else you might want to look at or think about. Most people feel that Billy was at Celsa's home. She was the sister-in-law to Garrett. Different ones may have been trying to protect her. (Just my thought).
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 22, 2012 23:33:33 GMT -5
Sorry, one more quote from Brett Hall's book:
<<In the same book by Miguel Antonio Otero there is an interview with Jesus Silva which confirms the earlier testimony of Frank Lobato, proving he was exactly where Roberts said he was.>>
So according to Hall, these quotes of Lobato himself saying he was there come from Miguel Antonio Otero's book "The Real Billy The Kid". I don't have a copy of that book so I can't check to confirm that. But if they are indeed there, I think Otero would qualify as someone who is "not a Brushy person".
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Post by nmjames on Apr 22, 2012 23:40:09 GMT -5
Thanks Wayne,
I have the book and will look it up. It will be tomorrow night however.
Later!
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 22, 2012 23:42:43 GMT -5
I don't mean to fall into the same old debates that have been repeated ad nauseum for years, but it is entirely possible that Silva, Deluvina, and a few others who probably would have known Garrett shot the wrong man, might have kept quiet about it for Billy's protection. And it is entirely possible that many of the people who reported "seeing the body", actually saw it wrapped in a sheet and couldn't have known if it wasn't really him. Did anyone other than the few people mentioned, ever state they saw the face of the body and recognized it as Billy? Anyone that is, who would not have a desire to protect him?
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