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Post by MissyS on Jun 2, 2021 22:54:16 GMT -5
J.H. Koogler, of the Las Vegas Gazette, interviewed the Kid and described him somewhat six and a half months before the Fort Sumner shooting.. “There was nothing very mannish about him in appearance, for he looked and acted a mere boy. He is about five feet eight or nine inches tall, slightly built and lithe, weighing about 140; a frank open countenance, looking like a school boy, with the traditional silky fuzz on his upper lip; clear blue eyes, with a roguish snap about them; light hair and complexion.” No mention of a beard, but he isn’t the only one that seen Billy before the shooting occurred and described him without a mention of a beard. Also Albert E. Hyde in his book “Billy the Kid in the Old Regime of the Southwest” Hyde saw Billy on the train when he was on his way out of Las Vegas and witnessed in detail the lynch mob that delayed the train and he also saw Billy while sitting outside on the veranda at the Grand View Hotel as Billy arrived by Garrett and his posse in a wagon, and among his descriptions described Billy as a beardless young man, and also described him as a boyish looking man. In the Terre Haute Weekly Gazzette July 28,1881 a man named J A Mackley of New Mexico also saw Billy at the train in Las Vegas and described him as a Pale, delicate youth with light blue eyes and a light mustache straggling about his upper lip. There was no mention of a beard. It could be easy to assume that J. H. Koogler may have overlooked a beard, but it wasn’t just him; there are two others Albert E. Hyde and J A Mackley that also saw Billy after his arrest by Garrett and one of the two distinctly said he was beardless and the other did not mention Billy having a beard, if he noticed the mustache he more than likely would have noticed and mentioned the beard. So out of three witnesses describing Billy what are the odds all three were wrong? It does seem as though he was possibly trying to grow a mustache when he was arrested?, could he have been trying to grow a beard as well but it just wasn’t noticed by the three men that described him? How could all three have overlooked it? What are the odds that Billy grew a beard in that short length of time from his arrest to the time of the shooting?  |
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Post by devorerd on Jun 3, 2021 8:11:42 GMT -5
Seems rather concrete that the Kid, at that point did not have the ability to grow a beard. Now all that said, it's nearly impossible to know actually who saw the dead body and who came up with the beard and the "dyed" skin, but nonetheless it is out there and just adds to the myster, the rumors and speculation.
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Post by Elwood on Jun 3, 2021 12:10:13 GMT -5
Seems rather concrete that the Kid, at that point did not have the ability to grow a beard. Now all that said, it's nearly impossible to know actually who saw the dead body and who came up with the beard and the "dyed" skin, but nonetheless it is out there and just adds to the myster, the rumors and speculation. If a person were to dye their skin to a darker hue, would that also change the color of their "peach fuzz" if also dyed? Perhaps what facial hair the person had, would also appear to be a "beard" if darkened? |
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Post by MissyS on Jun 3, 2021 16:17:31 GMT -5
Seems rather concrete that the Kid, at that point did not have the ability to grow a beard. Now all that said, it's nearly impossible to know actually who saw the dead body and who came up with the beard and the "dyed" skin, but nonetheless it is out there and just adds to the myster, the rumors and speculation. If a person were to dye their skin to a darker hue, would that also change the color of their "peach fuzz" if also dyed? Perhaps what facial hair the person had, would also appear to be a "beard" if darkened? That’s a good question, and it makes sense that dying the skin would change the hair color on the face and in the process Billy probably would have had to also dye the hair on his head too if he was more light haired to make things look more natural, but was hair dye available in 1881?, a product like that may not have been easy to find in Fort Sumner if it was produced? I think the source of Billy dying his skin came from S.M. Ashenfelter an editor from the Grant County Herald he wrote, “Since his escape from the Lincoln County jail, the Kid has allowed his beard to grow and stained his skin brown to look like a Mexican.” It’s doubtful Ashenfelter seen the body and how he got the information is a mystery, he didn’t say how he managed to stain his skin? Was it even possible to be able to stain the skin in 1881? Could he have used something natural? It’s interesting that Jesus Silva in his interview he mentions chatting with Billy just before the shooting but he didn’t mention anything about Billy having dyed his skin or grown a beard, those are drastic changes in a person to not note. Jesus Silva also mentions in his interview in 1936 that Billy stayed at the Anaya home for a month after his escape and Anaya had three daughters and when strangers came Billy dressed up like a girl and sat with them in the kitchen. How could Billy have gotten away with that if he had a beard?, I assume his mustache was light enough to not be noticeable either when he disguised himself as a girl? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 13:27:15 GMT -5
Seems rather concrete that the Kid, at that point did not have the ability to grow a beard. Now all that said, it's nearly impossible to know actually who saw the dead body and who came up with the beard and the "dyed" skin, but nonetheless it is out there and just adds to the myster, the rumors and speculation. If a person were to dye their skin to a darker hue, would that also change the color of their "peach fuzz" if also dyed? Perhaps what facial hair the person had, would also appear to be a "beard" if darkened? I agree that it is a good question, but I do not think so either. In addition, Billy was not known to use disguises and this would simply make him stick out like a sore thumb if he did this. The fact that he could only grow "peach fuzz" reveals that he was experience delayed sexual maturity. He had several conditions which were rare. For example, both Pat Garrett and Severos Gallegos refer to Billy and Gallegos and others confirmed Brushy Bill had these, brown flecks in his blue eyes. Garrett called them "hazel hues" but I think it is safe to deduce that he means the same thing as Severos and others. This eye condition is known as Heterochromia, which is a rare eye condition. That only about 2% to 5% of persons out there have, so this would be very unlikely that Brushy just happened to have that condition too, if you consider all of the other factors that match. |
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Post by MissyS on Jul 14, 2021 14:42:28 GMT -5
One of Paulita Maxwell’s descriptions of Billy was “He was not handsome but had a certain sort of boyish good looks”. I’m guessing Paulita described Billy as how she remembered he looked the last time she saw him, if so then Billy having a beard I don’t think would fit the description she gave, because a beard would more likely have made him look more mature not boyish looking? I don’t recall any friends of Billy that ever described him as having a beard, no old timers that were interviewed that knew him gave that description, maybe he only had a beard a short time when he escaped?, but it doesn’t fit the story Jesus Silva said about Billy hiding out at Anaya’s kitchen and dressing like a girl when visitors came for a month after his escape. I’m wondering if S.M. Ashenfelter had gotten the information about Billy dying his skin and letting his beard grow from Pat Garrett? I doubt he saw Billy after his escape. It’s these statements and descriptions that add doubts in my mind about it being someone else that was shot.
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Post by kerry on Jul 16, 2021 16:07:53 GMT -5
Paulita records a child born in Fort Sumner looking remarkably like BTK -of which the mother was very proud....
Jesus' accounts including that recalled by his grandson - have BTK being shot on the porch with a rifle....so who did Garrett shoot in Maxwell's bedroom ?
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Post by Elwood on Jul 16, 2021 19:44:45 GMT -5
Paulita records a child born in Fort Sumner looking remarkably like BTK -of which the mother was very proud.... Jesus' accounts including that recalled by his grandson - have BTK being shot on the porch with a rifle....so who did Garrett shoot in Maxwell's bedroom ? Big auction coming up soon: www.bonhams.com/auctions/27262/Gun that was supposedly used to kill Billy the Kid has a $2 to $3 Million estimate on it. How will that contrast with the Guns 3: Alias Billy the Kid movie being filmed now, and then being released in August 2022? |
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Post by Elwood on Jul 16, 2021 20:12:43 GMT -5
Paulita records a child born in Fort Sumner looking remarkably like BTK -of which the mother was very proud.... Jesus' accounts including that recalled by his grandson - have BTK being shot on the porch with a rifle....so who did Garrett shoot in Maxwell's bedroom ? Big auction coming up soon: www.bonhams.com/auctions/27262/Gun that was supposedly used to kill Billy the Kid has a $2 to $3 Million estimate on it. How will that contrast with the Guns 3: Alias Billy the Kid movie being filmed now, and then being released in August 2022? More details on Lot 11: www.bonhams.com/auctions/27262/lot/11/?category=list&length=12&page=1LOT 11 THE GUN THAT KILLED BILLY THE KID: PAT GARRETT'S COLT SINGLE ACTION ARMY REVOLVER USED TO KILL BILLY THE KID. Serial number 55093 for 1880, .44-40 caliber 7 1/2 inch barrel, one line Hartford address crescent ejector rod head. US$ 2,000,000 - 3,000,000 The Early West The Collection of Jim and Theresa Earle 27 Aug 2021, 12:00 PDT |
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Post by kerry on Jul 17, 2021 2:38:41 GMT -5
So strange Pat Garrett confiscating Billy Wilson's single action Colt yet auctioning off the Colt Thunderer(or Lightning) collected from Maxwell's bedroom....that pistol was a rare novelty at the time and quite a sensation on its own without it being said to have,been taken from BTK's dead hand.
I guess Pat had to make a sacrifice back in Lincoln since he did'nt have a body -
the 1878 double-action would have drawn a lot of attention - almost as good as if he had shown up with BTK's corpse....
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Post by MissyS on Jul 17, 2021 3:23:29 GMT -5
It’s also odd that there’s an 1873 Winchester rifle that is said Billy the Kid had stolen from the courthouse when he escaped also up for auction and said to have been obtained by Pat Garrett at Maxwell’s. If Billy only had a pistol and or a knife in his hand at the time, then where was this rifle? How was it obtained by Garrett? www.bonhams.com/auctions/27262/lot/10/?category=list&length=12&page=1 |
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Post by kerry on Jul 17, 2021 4:25:51 GMT -5
Yet it is said that in an inventory of his armory after BTK's escape -Pat recorded only two .44 Colts missing.
If Garrett had a rifle (and saddle) of Billy's -then he got them along with BTK's horse after the arrest at Stinking Springs...and later auctioned the rifle and saddle with the pistol taken at Fort Sumner -there is no mention of,returning from Fort Sumner with BTK's horse saddle and rifle.. if so the horse would have been carrying BTK's body.Garrett did leave Charlie's body at Stinking Springs for his widow to collect -yet almost immediately handed over BTK's body out of consideration to BTK's friends in Fort Sumner.
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Post by Elwood on Jul 17, 2021 6:45:35 GMT -5
Big auction coming up soon: www.bonhams.com/auctions/27262/Gun that was supposedly used to kill Billy the Kid has a $2 to $3 Million estimate on it. How will that contrast with the Guns 3: Alias Billy the Kid movie being filmed now, and then being released in August 2022? More details on Lot 11: www.bonhams.com/auctions/27262/lot/11/?category=list&length=12&page=1LOT 11 THE GUN THAT KILLED BILLY THE KID: PAT GARRETT'S COLT SINGLE ACTION ARMY REVOLVER USED TO KILL BILLY THE KID. Serial number 55093 for 1880, .44-40 caliber 7 1/2 inch barrel, one line Hartford address crescent ejector rod head. US$ 2,000,000 - 3,000,000 The Early West The Collection of Jim and Theresa Earle 27 Aug 2021, 12:00 PDT Pat Garrett had left with Tom Powers, at his bar, the supposed gun that was used to kill Billy the Kid. Pat ran into some financial issues and may have needed money? Tom Powers had that gun in his possession, up until he died. Pat's widow had to try to get the gun back and ended up going to court. Seems like it was the 1930s (50 years after Billy the Kid was supposedly shot) before the Garrett family obtained the gun again. Newspaper articles covered some of this over the years. |
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Post by RonBk on Jul 17, 2021 12:04:57 GMT -5
When zooming in on the pictures of that rifle it appears to be initials carved into the wood of the stock near the butt plate. Its hard to make out the letters, could be W.R. If so, perhaps that means William Roberts.
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Post by Elwood on Jul 22, 2021 12:36:01 GMT -5
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