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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 6, 2021 17:22:55 GMT -5
First of all, did Eulaine sign an affidavit that you can post here as evidence? If she did, please explain why her affidavit is more valuable than Severo Gallegos or Martile Abels affidavits. If there is no affidavit, please explain the chain of evidence and its strength. Also you need to explain why we should trust any statement she did about the identity of Brushy. For instance, how well did she know Oliver P Roberts? Did she know him well enough to recognize him at a later time as being Brushy? Please also explain why we should trust her at all. She could be a liar, or perhaps she was seeking fame? Perhaps she was mentally ill? Goodness, no. She didn't sign an affidavit. Morrison was trying to prove Brushy Bill was BtK, and solicited affidavits. Eulaine wasn't trying to prove anything. She was interested in family history.
Accuracy of genealogical sources varies widely, and errors can occur in any source. Sources ranked from most accurate (fewest errors) to least accurate (least reliable): state vital records (birth, death, marriage, divorce), land records, SSDI (Social Security Death Index) records, census records, cemetery/Find a Grave records, published obituaries, church records, published family histories, family stories, poorly researched Ancestry.com family trees, hearsay.
These census, cemetery, and vital records testify to the accuracy of Eulaine's information.
TX birth cert, Harris County, Eulaine Faye Goff; father D L Goff; mother Vada Heath
TX death cert, Cherokee County, Vada Belle Emerson; father Monroe Dudley Heath; mother Martha Vada Roberts
TX Death cert, Cherokee County, Martha Vada Heath; father H O Roberts; mother Dunn (Martha's mother was Caroline Dunn, [1850-1875], buried in Mount Harmony Cemetery, Greenwood, Sebastian County. AR)
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Post by DanJohno on Jun 6, 2021 19:23:04 GMT -5
Thats simply not true. There are a lot of supporting evidence. On the other hand, the absence of certain genealogy records is not solid proof the person did not exist. Everyone knows that who is a serious researcher. You clearly have a very biased way of weighing evidence. By your standards, since there are no credible evidence of where Billy the kid was born and who his father was, we should conclude that he was never born and he had no father. Its not serious to completely disregard the affidavits and claim none of them have any value. I dont mean youre wrong not believing Brushy of course, you may as well be right. Who knows. But you cant just disregard the affidavits, thats just ridiculous. The absence of census records is not evidence that a person did not exist. No record of my father has been found in the 1900 census, but he was recorded in the 1880, 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940 census.
" There are a lot of supporting evidence." What is the supporting evidence to which you refer?
Hearsay is not evidence.
Anyone can swear to anything they believe to be true. Sworn affidavits submitted in court and subject to cross examination are credible.
Morrison published 5 affidavits. DeWitt Travis was not born when Garrett fired the fatal shot, and could not compare the appearance of Brushy Bill before and after 1881.
Robert E Lee swore he first saw Billy the Kid in 1889, and could not compare the appearance of Brushy Bill before and after 1881.
Martile Able lived with her parents in Lampasas County in 1880, and probably never saw Billy the Kid before 1881. Both Severo Gallegos and Jose Montoya identified Brushy as BtK, even though it had been 68 years since they had last seen Billy the Kid.
TTT Are you the Billy the Kid author Frederick Nolan?
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 6, 2021 20:21:13 GMT -5
"Robert E Lee swore he first saw Billy the Kid in 1889, and could not compare the appearance of Brushy Bill before and after 1881. "
I've never been much interested in Robert E Lee's statements, but if this is correct it begs a question. If Robert E Lee first saw Billy The Kid (Brushy) in 1889 and Brushy's true identity was that of Oliver P. Roberts, then he was only 9 or 10 yrs. old when Lee first saw him. Yet Lee says Brushy was Billy. Hmmm?
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Post by RonBk on Jun 7, 2021 1:00:09 GMT -5
First of all, did Eulaine sign an affidavit that you can post here as evidence? If she did, please explain why her affidavit is more valuable than Severo Gallegos or Martile Abels affidavits. If there is no affidavit, please explain the chain of evidence and its strength. Also you need to explain why we should trust any statement she did about the identity of Brushy. For instance, how well did she know Oliver P Roberts? Did she know him well enough to recognize him at a later time as being Brushy? Please also explain why we should trust her at all. She could be a liar, or perhaps she was seeking fame? Perhaps she was mentally ill? Goodness, no. She didn't sign an affidavit. Morrison was trying to prove Brushy Bill was BtK, and solicited affidavits. Eulaine wasn't trying to prove anything. She was interested in family history.
Accuracy of genealogical sources varies widely, and errors can occur in any source. Sources ranked from most accurate (fewest errors) to least accurate (least reliable): state vital records (birth, death, marriage, divorce), land records, SSDI (Social Security Death Index) records, census records, cemetery/Find a Grave records, published obituaries, church records, published family histories, family stories, poorly researched Ancestry.com family trees, hearsay.
These census, cemetery, and vital records testify to the accuracy of Eulaine's information.
TX birth cert, Harris County, Eulaine Faye Goff; father D L Goff; mother Vada Heath
TX death cert, Cherokee County, Vada Belle Emerson; father Monroe Dudley Heath; mother Martha Vada Roberts
TX Death cert, Cherokee County, Martha Vada Heath; father H O Roberts; mother Dunn (Martha's mother was Caroline Dunn, [1850-1875], buried in Mount Harmony Cemetery, Greenwood, Sebastian County. AR)
So you have no answer for any of my questions. The only reason you think Eulaine's statement hold more value than 5 sworn affidavits is because you believe that Eulaine was telling the truth. You cant even prove she actually said these things.
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Post by RonBk on Jun 7, 2021 1:11:56 GMT -5
And to be clear im not talking about the information about Eulaine's grandparents, thats not contested. The question that you are trying to avoid is why should we trust Eulaine's statement about Brushy. But you have no answer for this.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 7, 2021 8:37:55 GMT -5
I believe Roy Haws stated in his book that his mother "believed" Tunstill and Brushy. Roy also started out believing Brushy, mostly because his mother believed him, but then started researching it and came up with his evidence Brushy was a fraud and wrote his book. I don't think he said whether he had ever successfully convinced his mother.. Evidence she believed it is actually documented on the family tree posted earlier. Near the lower right corner there is a statement which appears to be "her" words. It reads
"Oliver was killed - Brushy Bill used this name as an alias and lived with "my" great grandfather and S. Elizabeth". The word "my" indicates these were her words. BTW, Roy's book claims to contain proof that Brushy was a fraud but I read it cover to cover and found no such proof. The vast majority of the book are his own opinions about known family relationships, etc. that may or may not be accurate. Again, Roy, like Geneva Pittmon, was not around when Brushy took on the alias of Oliver Roberts and has no real firsthand knowledge of the true facts. Just being a descendant of that family does not make him an authority on the truth.
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Post by DanJohno on Jun 7, 2021 9:14:10 GMT -5
Did Geneva Pittmon just write the one letter saying Brushy wasn't Billy? If she was a close relative and knew for certain wouldn't she have a truck load of evidence to show? She seems to know all the answers but left us all hanging. Or was she just a bit grumpy because nobody in the family told her who he really was?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 7, 2021 9:43:40 GMT -5
And to be clear im not talking about the information about Eulaine's grandparents, thats not contested. The question that you are trying to avoid is why should we trust Eulaine's statement about Brushy. But you have no answer for this. Believable. She was a family member.
See p. 43, "Brushy Bill...Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale"
Transcription of first paragraph of letter from Paul Emerson to William Tunstill dated 2 August 1986.
"Dear Mr Tunstill, I have read your letters and the articles you have sent to my sister, Eulaine Haws, about Oliver (Brushy Bill) Roberts who said he was Billy the Kid. You have certainly done a lot of research and worked hard and I find it very interesting and fascinating to say the least. I REMEMBER MEETING OLIVER ROBERTS WHO WAS MY GRANDMOTHER'S BROTHER, NOT TOO LONG BEFORE MY GRANDMOTHER DIED. SHE WAS MARTHA VADA ROBERTS HEATH AND WAS MY MOTHER'S MOTHER. OLIVER CAME TO SEE HER IN JACKSONVILLE, TEXAS, AND I MET HIM. HE WAS A VERY 'DIKEY' LITTLE MAN THAT PARADED AROUND IN WESTERN CLOTHES AND COWBOY BOOTS, AND SAID HE WAS BILLY THE KID. I wish I had listened more carefully to what he had to say, spent more time in his presence, and got him to tell me some of his stories, but I was young and too busy I guess."
Never answer a question with a question, except in this case.
Why would anyone believe Brushy Bill's story? No credible, verifiable evidence has been found that supports his story.
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Post by DanJohno on Jun 7, 2021 9:58:46 GMT -5
And to be clear im not talking about the information about Eulaine's grandparents, thats not contested. The question that you are trying to avoid is why should we trust Eulaine's statement about Brushy. But you have no answer for this. Believable. She was a family member.
See p. 43, "Brushy Bill...Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale"
Transcription of first paragraph of letter from Paul Emerson to William Tunstill dated 2 August 1986.
"Dear Mr Tunstill, I have read your letters and the articles you have sent to my sister, Eulaine Haws, about Oliver (Brushy Bill) Roberts who said he was Billy the Kid. You have certainly done a lot of research and worked hard and I find it very interesting and fascinating to say the least. I REMEMBER MEETING OLIVER ROBERTS WHO WAS MY GRANDMOTHER'S BROTHER, NOT TOO LONG BEFORE MY GRANDMOTHER DIED. SHE WAS MARTHA VADA ROBERTS HEATH AND WAS MY MOTHER'S MOTHER. OLIVER CAME TO SEE HER IN JACKSONVILLE, TEXAS, AND I MET HIM. HE WAS A VERY 'DIKEY' LITTLE MAN THAT PARADED AROUND IN WESTERN CLOTHES AND COWBOY BOOTS, AND SAID HE WAS BILLY THE KID. I wish I had listened more carefully to what he had to say, spent more time in his presence, and got him to tell me some of his stories, but I was young and too busy I guess."
Never answer a question with a question, except in this case.
Why would anyone believe Brushy Bill's story? No credible, verifiable evidence has been found that supports his story.
Pleased to meet you Fred
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Post by chivato88 on Jun 7, 2021 10:43:54 GMT -5
Believable. She was a family member.
See p. 43, "Brushy Bill...Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale"
Transcription of first paragraph of letter from Paul Emerson to William Tunstill dated 2 August 1986.
"Dear Mr Tunstill, I have read your letters and the articles you have sent to my sister, Eulaine Haws, about Oliver (Brushy Bill) Roberts who said he was Billy the Kid. You have certainly done a lot of research and worked hard and I find it very interesting and fascinating to say the least. I REMEMBER MEETING OLIVER ROBERTS WHO WAS MY GRANDMOTHER'S BROTHER, NOT TOO LONG BEFORE MY GRANDMOTHER DIED. SHE WAS MARTHA VADA ROBERTS HEATH AND WAS MY MOTHER'S MOTHER. OLIVER CAME TO SEE HER IN JACKSONVILLE, TEXAS, AND I MET HIM. HE WAS A VERY 'DIKEY' LITTLE MAN THAT PARADED AROUND IN WESTERN CLOTHES AND COWBOY BOOTS, AND SAID HE WAS BILLY THE KID. I wish I had listened more carefully to what he had to say, spent more time in his presence, and got him to tell me some of his stories, but I was young and too busy I guess."
Never answer a question with a question, except in this case.
Why would anyone believe Brushy Bill's story? No credible, verifiable evidence has been found that supports his story.
Pleased to meet you Fred Hahahahaha thats funny! But I dont think its him, some people in the past tought he was Jim Johnson also lol
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Post by DanJohno on Jun 7, 2021 11:10:09 GMT -5
Definitely a famous author or someone trying to protect a reputation while hiding behind the cool alias name of Texas Truth Teller.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 7, 2021 11:18:35 GMT -5
Did Geneva Pittmon just write the one letter saying Brushy wasn't Billy? If she was a close relative and knew for certain wouldn't she have a truck load of evidence to show? She seems to know all the answers but left us all hanging. Or was she just a bit grumpy because nobody in the family told her who he really was? As far as anyone knows she only wrote the one letter about Brushy. Remember, she wasn't even born when Brushy came back to Texas and assumed the alias of Oliver Roberts. She had no way of knowing he was the real Oliver P. Roberts other than him being introduced to her that way. She offered no evidence other than saying she had the family Bible which proves absolutely nothing except there really was an Oliver P. Roberts born in 1879. That DOES NOT prove Brushy and Oliver were one and the same man. Her being told that as a child and believing it doesn't prove anything either.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 7, 2021 11:18:55 GMT -5
An interview posted on Amazon: "I have finished reading Roy Haws book, "Brushy Bill...Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale?"
Here's my review I had posted on Amazon:
"Anyone who has studied the history of William H. Bonney aka Billy the Kid, from amateur history enthusiasts to notable historians, we've all heard the Billy the Kid myths and conspiracy theories that range from slightly plausible to downright ridiculous. No other Billy the Kid myth has gotten as much attention and has deceived many people than the absurd notion that Billy the Kid’s death was a hoax and that he really lived to be an old man. The one man that laid the biggest claim to that conspiracy theory is Brushy Bill Roberts. Brushy’s claim was exposed to the general public in C.L. Sonnichsen and William Morrison’s book, “Alias Billy the Kid” (1955) and it snowballed from there."
"Thanks to the movie “Young Guns 2” (1990), it brought attention to Brushy Bill Roberts to a new generation that was so caught up in the Hollywood romanticized Billy the Kid that they couldn’t accept the truth of their hero getting killed. So with the seed planted, a slew of “Brushy Believers” began preaching their theories on websites, social media, books, television, and worse of all, a museum in Hico, Texas dedicated to raising awareness that Brushy Bill Roberts was indeed Billy the Kid. Even Brushy Bill’s headstone has an inscription “Billy the Kid” to further deceive the public that he was the famous New Mexico outlaw. I shudder to think how many tourists were easily fooled out of ignorance."
"The myth and lies of Brushy Bill Roberts has been the subject of heated debates for years and almost lead to the exhumations of graves for DNA testing, but that’s a topic for another debate. Anyways, no matter how much historical facts and just plain common sense proved otherwise, Brushy Believers stood firm and would counter with delusional theories that even exceeded the imagination of Brushy Bill himself."
"That may now come to an end."
"Roy Haws, author of “Brushy Bill…Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale,” has compiled enough evidence to discredit Brushy Bill Robert’s claims and finally put this debate to rest once and for all. What makes this book unique from other books out there discrediting Brushy Bill, is that Roy is the great-great nephew of Brushy Bill Roberts and therefore has access to family records, documentation, and testimony from family members. Along with Roy’s painstaking research and documentation of the genealogy and origin of Brushy Bill, he also debunks Brushy’s many claims, from his colorful stories to his outright lies. Roy counters and extinguishes every conspiracy theory put out by Brushy’s supporters. I don’t think even the staunchest Brushy Believer can refute the abundance of evidence in this book."
"Anyone with an open-mind who questions if Oliver Roberts alias Brushy Bill Roberts is Billy the Kid, must read this book. If you already know Brushy was a fraud, this is a good source to have in your collection to use as reference in your debates with Brushy Believers. Then again, if Brushy Believers still exists after this book then they truly are a lost cause and not worth the effort."
"Thank you Roy Haws for your hard work on debunking Brushy Bill Roberts."
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Post by DanJohno on Jun 7, 2021 11:26:15 GMT -5
Did Geneva Pittmon just write the one letter saying Brushy wasn't Billy? If she was a close relative and knew for certain wouldn't she have a truck load of evidence to show? She seems to know all the answers but left us all hanging. Or was she just a bit grumpy because nobody in the family told her who he really was? As far as anyone knows she only wrote the one letter about Brushy. Remember, she wasn't even born when Brushy came back to Texas and assumed the alias of Oliver Roberts. She had no way of knowing he was the real Oliver P. Roberts other than him being introduced to her that way. She offered no evidence other than saying she had the family Bible which proves absolutely nothing except there really was an Oliver P. Roberts born in 1879. That DOES NOT prove Brushy and Oliver were one and the same man. Her being told that as a child and believing it doesn't prove anything either. In her letter Geneva says she doesn't know what the P in Oliver.P.Roberts stands for. But she also states she has the family bible records. Wouldn't the bible have the full name?
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Post by RonBk on Jun 7, 2021 11:27:07 GMT -5
TTT, perhaps you could explain what the evidence consists of in Roys book? According to Wayne there was no evidence presented at all. And I trust Wayne a lot more than some random person who wrote this review without naming a single piece of concrete evidence.
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