William H Bonney my hero
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Post by William H Bonney my hero on Nov 9, 2011 10:51:37 GMT -5
not many people know this but there is more proof for Brushy claim when he was alive. does anyone find this interesting?
1. Bob Young, a native of Round Rock, Texas, visited Hamilton, Texas in 1930 and first met Brushy Bill. The two became friends and Brushy informed Young that he would like to accompany him on his return to Round Rock. When the time came for Young to return home, Brushy regretfully said he couldn’t accompany him, since his wife was sick. Still, Brushy asked Young to look up an old friend of his, Jimmy McDaniels (a former member of the Jessie Evans Gang and veteran of the Lincoln County War), who also lived in Round Rock. Brushy went on to tell Young that when he found McDaniels, to simply tell him ‘’the Kid says hello.’’ When Young returned to Round Rock, he met with McDaniels and delivered Brushy’s message. Upon hearing this, Brushy looked as if he had been badly frightened.
2. One day in the 1940s, Brushy was walking down a street in Hico. Also walking down the street was a five year old boy and his mother. When the boy ran into the street and was almost hit by a car, the mother yelled out her son's name, Billy, loudly. Witnesses said that Brushy whirled around and reached for an imaginary pistol. After Brushy realized his name wasn't being called, he hurried away. Although this may not be proof that he was Billy the kid, it does indicate he was a man used to danger.
and 3. One day in 1945, Brushy was walking down a Hico street. An old lawman named Henry Anthony and his sons were also on the street and when Anthony saw Brushy, he jumped up and yelled at Brushy, calling him Billy Bonney, and told him to throw up his hands. When his sons calmed him down, Anthony said that Brushy was the Kid. He swore for the rest of his life that Brushy was the Kid.
what do you think?
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Post by searcher64 on Dec 23, 2011 20:21:52 GMT -5
did you mean to say it was mcDaniels who was frightened when he got the message? that is the story, that young told mcDaniels 'the kid says hello' and that is what scared mcDaniels.
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Post by searcher64 on Dec 23, 2011 20:26:58 GMT -5
i just found something possibly of note: an old query in Genealogy.com archives, supposedly by a descendant of thomas roberts, ollie's brother, in which an old family story passed down states that sometime before 1900, tom was caught by some thugs and was claimed to be a horse thief. when the rope was being strung, brushy and some other ahta agents arrived... brushy took charge and said tom was his cousin and also a fellow agent. he lifted the saddle blanket on the horse in question, to reveal an ahta brand, which caused the gang to scatter. this is supposedly the event which was repaid by tom's 'hiding' brushy as ollie. what do you think? i'd like to find out more. this was one of the few things that otherwise doesn't quite add up, to me. if true, it puts much in context as far as brushy's credibility. this descendant seemed to view brushy as the real thing.....
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 24, 2011 2:55:37 GMT -5
I'd like very much to read that story from genealogy.com. I never heard it said that Tom was involved in that episode. I've always understood it to be Brushy's cousin Ollie, the real Ollie, that was caught and reportedly "killed". Brushy came upon the body and recognized his cousin Ollie. He retrieved Ollie's belongings and years later, returned them to the family in Texas. Upon the return of the belongings to Ollie's mother and father, the mother mistook Brushy as her son Ollie and even though other family members knew it wasn't true, he played along and so did they. That's when he took on the alias of Ollie Roberts.
The problem with that whole theory is that there really was an Oliver Pleasant Roberts who was a brother to Tom, but he didn't die in the 1890's when "Ollie" was allegedly killed by the thugs. We know that because we have the his marriage license from 1908 in Texas and divorce from her in 1910. This Oliver Roberts was definitely "not" our Brushy. In fact, Brushy didn't show up in Texas until around the time of that divorce. Those who believe Brushy was a fraud, believe his true identity was that of Oliver Pleasant Roberts and that after the rather embarrassing divorce, he changed his middle initial to "L" . To further complicate things, we have a draft registration from 1918 signed by Oliver Pleasant Roberts and witnessed by his father and it lists his wife as Mollie who Brushy identified as his first wife. Was Oliver Pleasant still in Texas in 1918 or was that Brushy who registered for the draft using the name Oliver Pleasant Roberts? I believe that was Brushy and that Oliver Pleasant's father was helping him cover his true identity by identifying him as his son. I believe the real Oliver Pleasant left Texas after that embarrassing divorce. I also believe there were two Olivers in that family. Oliver Pleasant, born in 1879 and the real Oliver L, born in 1868. I believe it was the real Oliver L, that was killed in Indian territory and it was that brother who Brushy was pretending to be. I believe the real Ollie L, ran away from home as a teenager. I believe he was born before his mother was married and thus the family never reported him on the census in order to protect the mother's reputation, etc.
I could write many pages explaining my reasons for all this, and space and time do not allow it here. I have no proof of my theory, but when you consider all the history of we know to be confirmed about Brushy, Oliver Pleasant and Ollie L., it is the only scenario that makes sense. But it's complex and probably difficult to follow.
I do suspect the story you saw on Genealogy.com had Tom Roberts confused with Oliver Roberts.
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Post by searcher64 on Dec 24, 2011 17:01:15 GMT -5
normally i would save the link, but i had 20 windows open working. i'll have to post the link when i can. the scenario you present above, while more complex, seems quite plausible. i suspect brushy was intent on getting family to work in his favor in old age, as it had not done so in his youth. your handwriting comparison is very compelling evidence. there's obviously a different guy signing as oliver pleasant, not the original o.p., and his writing tellingly matches that on the cigarette paper of btk. (and that of brushy) on another note, i took the photo of billy and deluvina, where he is showing his long fingers and holding the same rifle which is now in an nm museum. i scaled the sideview of brushy with mabry and placed the 2 billy's nose to nose.. its like he was looking in a mirror they are so close. happy holidays to all.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 5, 2012 8:06:55 GMT -5
Wayne,
I don't know if this should go here, but what do you know about Walter N. 'Brushy' Roberts?
Thanks
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 5, 2012 15:39:03 GMT -5
Looked him up in Google and saw an article that mentions him as being our Brushy's uncle. Said "he" was called "Brushy" because of his large mustache. Interesting lead here. What else do you know about Walter N. Roberts?
Another question no Brushy doubter has ever answered satisfactorily. Maybe you can shed some light. If Brushy's real name was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, however he got the nickname "Brushy", where did the "Bill" come from? Why wouldn't his nickname be Brushy Ollie or Brushy Pleasant?
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Post by nmjames on Jun 5, 2012 21:23:50 GMT -5
As for Walter, about the only other thing to add is that he was a Dallas Police Officer and lived around the Dallas area. He was said to be Brushy's uncle and got the name Brushy because of his large mustache as you stated.
As for Brushy, I have heard two different things on the name Brushy but you are asking about the name Bill. Brushy stated his real name was William Henry Roberts. He was telling people he was Billy the Kid, William H. Bonney. Thus the name Brushy Bill.
I also have where the name may have come from J. Frank Dalton. I have been trying to find it and will keep looking where J. Frank Dalton used the name Brushy Bill in Texas as one of his names. When Brushy decided to make the claim that he was Billy the Kid, I think Dalton and Brushy decided to use the name Brushy Bill.
If you will dig into Dalton more, I think you will find a lot about where Brushy's stories came from. (I think there is a lot to be found around the Roswell, NM. area on Dalton and Brushy. But not from the 1880s. More in the late 1940s. Also in the Lawton, OK. area)
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 6, 2012 1:02:42 GMT -5
I always believed Brushy was being called "Brushy Bill" long before he ever told anyone he was Billy The Kid. So I am suggesting the use of the name Bill was due to the fact that his real name was William and not Oliver.
You said something above I had never heard before regarding J. Frank Dalton using the name Brushy Bill. I'd love to know where that came from.
By the way, I am not convinced Dalton was not really Jesse James. I'm not convinced he was Jesse, but I'm also not convinced he was a fraud.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 6, 2012 23:10:37 GMT -5
Wayne
I don't think Brushy's real name was William H. Roberts.
As to Dalton using Brushy Bill, I haven't been able to find it but have it somewhere. It's in a long discussion about J. Frank Dalton, a picture found near Roswell, NM, an article in a 1947 magazine and a man by the name of Bouyer. The discussion is long and has a lot of names in it. I did find this statement; Dalton is also known by several other names, including The Kid in Texas, an appartent reference to Billy the Kid.
There is also an article in another magazine in 1971 about a Mr. and Mrs. Reno that met Dalton in 1901 or 1902. He was using the name Happy Jack Dalton but told them his real name was John ......... The name John Shevlin, another one time owner of Dalton's contract came up.
I don't know how true all of this is and as I said, it's quite long. Somewhere in all of this is the part about Dalton using the name Brushy Bill but I will have to keep reading it. If I have time this weekend, I will keep looking for it.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 7, 2012 14:31:31 GMT -5
I am suggesting his use of "Bill" as part of the nickname "Brushy Bill" supports the claim that his real name was William and not Oliver. Evidence his name was William Henry Roberts is the family Bible he left behind that showed that along with a birth date of Dec. 31, 1859 and other family connections as he described to Morrison. And then there are the witnesses who said they had known him since childhood and that his real name was William Henry Roberts. Possibly the Bible doesn't exist, possibly it does exist but the entries cited above were written in by Brushy or a co-conspirator in a fraudulent claim, possibly the witnesses who identified him as such were all lying. But there is no proof either way. It is the combined presentation of all the evidence that leads to my conviction he was exactly who he said he was.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 7, 2012 18:19:22 GMT -5
Wanye,
Show me where William Henry Roberts, James H. Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn Roberts all fit together at the right time, and their death. Also show me where the witnesses who said they had known him since childhood that date back to 1859 or even before , let's say before 1879.
Brush had a lot of things in his little note books and Morrison said many were wrong. Brush had decided to be Billy the Kid and he could have started putting the names in any Bible.
You will not except what Mrs. Pittman had to say but you do Brushy when he was making all kinds of wild claims. I don't think Brushy was born in 1859 or even 1868. I do not think he was born in Buffalo Gap. (If Brushy was born in Buffalo Gap, why don't they state that he was and was the real Billy the Kid?)
To me, there is way more to prove Brushy wasn't Billy the Kid than anything to prove he was.
One has to twist stories about Brushy to even try to make them fit the life of Billy the Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 7, 2012 19:31:22 GMT -5
Well James, please know I respect your knowledge and opinions. I don't suppose there was a census taken in Buffalo Gap in 1860. If there was it might have listed James, Mary Adeline and little William. You are correct that the Bible itself, as stated in my previous post, could have contained fraudulent information. If the Bible were made available for testing, maybe they could determine it's age and maybe even the ink on the page? I wish that could happen. Of course, the reason I don't accept what Mrs. Pittmon said is that she was such a small child when Brushy returned to Texas and the real Oliver Pleasant had already taken off before she ever had a chance to know him or remember him. I also have some questions about the letter she wrote as it appears to have possibly been altered.
Unlike you, I believe the preponderance of evidence points to Brushy being the real BTK. Stated as concisely as I can in the form of a question. What are the odds that a man so closely matching the physical description of Billy with a great deal more knowledge about Billy's circumstances than was common at the time, with a high pitched voice like Billy, with a mouth slightly askew from the center of his nose, with the right shoulder lower than the left, with similar hands, with virtually identical facial dimensions, with positive identification of several survivors who knew Billy, would choose to put himself at risk of being executed for murder by claiming to be Billy? All the way down to the speckled eyes, the same laugh and walk, the same erect stature in the saddle, the same small feet, the same height, shoulder width, ........ So he made a few errors in his memory of events and people from 79 years prior. Heck, at 62 I can't half remember things and people from my teens and early 20's. Memories from that far back get twisted, and confused, yes they do.
I hope when I'm 90, no one wants me to prove my identity through perfect, flawless remembrances of every detail of say, my senior year in college. What courses I took, who I sat next to in class, what cities I traveled to with the marching band on which dates. Just recently I tried to argue with a friend that I had marched halftime in the Super Dome in 1970 and argued insistently until I researched the facts and found out the Super Dome wasn't even open yet in 1970. I guess I'm a fraud too. I wonder who I really am?(LOL)
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Post by nmjames on Jun 7, 2012 22:29:42 GMT -5
Wayne,
I really don't think Brushy was born in Buffalo Gap. My brother-in-laws family goes way back in that area and as a young man I spent some time there. But in saying that, even if Brushy was born in Buffalo Gap, I'm almost certain Billy the Kid was not. Ture we can't say for certain just where he was born but Joe McCarty states he was born in New York in 1863. William Antrim in 1915 states Henry and Joe were from New York as well as their Dad. (Antrim only used the name McCarty. I wish he had gave his first name. )
As for Brushy matching Billy's physical description, I don't agree. It is said that Billy had clear Blue Eyes and light hair. (We have discussed this before.) Brushy was said to have gray eyes and black hair. I know you feel your drawing showing Billy and Brushy have the same features but again I don't see it and could point out some things you have wrong. Again, I have seen some experts that state Brushy and Billy do not match. I even have one on a tape showing how he compared the two as well as other pictures said to be Billy.
As for the speckled eyes, I know where that come from and know more than I want to say. So let's just say I do not agree.
As for having a great deal more knowledge about Billy's circumstances than was common at the time. That is just a Brushy talking point. It's just not true. Anyone that lived in this area very long and people that were kin sure knew it. And again, I haven't found very much that Brushy got right.
So I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
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Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Jun 8, 2012 6:34:07 GMT -5
The truth is there were many statements claimed to have been made about Billy’s eyes. Only one of them states that he had “Clear Blue Eyes”. The rest vary from light Blue to Blue Grey to Blue Grey with Brown specks. There are signed, notarized statements saying that Billy and Brushy are one and the same and that he has Blue Grey eyes with Brown specks.
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