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Post by MissyS on Dec 18, 2020 15:04:02 GMT -5
I found this very interesting article on the Roswell Daily Record about covering an article from The Amarillo Daily News, Texas, dated Friday Morning, Nov. 13, 1936, titled “I Was With Billy the Kid That Night Just Before Pat Garrett Killed ‘im’ Says Man Who Knew Fearless Gunman.” I have never read this interview before, Jesus Silva was 85 when he made the interview and he told about where and how Billy hid leading up to the shooting and other things about him dressing like a girl and how he had a fight at a dance and things he knew concerning Chisum, and Garrett, quite interesting. www.rdrnews.com/2020/08/03/historically-speaking-the-night-billy-the-kid-was-killed-an-eyewitness-account/
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Post by MissyS on Dec 19, 2020 16:18:24 GMT -5
There’s some things I found odd, in the interview I want to share. Jesus said Billy died at 9:00 o clock not midnight, another odd thing if Garrett and his posse had guns drawn on Billy and Jesus while they were talking and drinking beer and Jesus saw this happening surely he would have alerted Billy to it, so why would Billy walk into a trap right after Garrett had guns drawn on him? Garrett’s version was that they heard talking in the orchard and saw a man jump the fence and later learned it was Billy, he didn’t say they had guns drawn on him but didn’t shoot him because of the safety of someone close to him. Reading Jesus interview it sounds as though maybe Garrett overheard Billy saying he was going to ask Pete for some beef and ran ahead of him to trap him there? Billy may have stopped and borrowed the knife to cut the beef with and that may have given Garrett a head start to Pete’s, but Jesus said Garrett RAN there and he couldn’t understand how Billy got the knife in his hand so quickly? Jesus also said there was no one on the porch, which is also odd. Billy telling Jesus that he knew he was gonna get killed and by Garrett is puzzling, if he really felt that way, then he should have been on alert at all times, it’s odd he would just walk in his midst. Then there was the servant sent to find Jesus and shouted ‘Jesus, come here! I think Pat has killed Billy.’ The word “THINK” was it as he thought it may be Billy like he wasn’t sure it was Billy? or was it meant as thinking he could still be alive? Jesus’s interview puts a different spin on some other things such as why Billy was hanging around Fort Sumner it may not have been because of a sweetheart as the wide belief but to hunt and kill Barney Mason. The horse that Billy stole from the man named “Butcher” could have been a plan to ride it to Mexico when he got enough money together? The man named “Butcher” is also a little curious could he have possibly been the Billy Barlow?, maybe because Butcher was afraid of Billy and he wanted to get his fine horse back and knew a sheriff was in town, he may have went to see him to report his horse stolen and walked into a trap?, however Jesus said he saw Billy’s body, and it sounds convincing reading his interview that it was Billy, although he couldn’t explain why Billy could have a knife in his hand so quickly? Jesus said he was face down when he saw him and I don’t know if it’s possible he helped carry the body to the carpenters shop also face down? could it be possible he didn’t see his face? Jesus could still have noticed Billy’s clothing when he spoke to him and what his gun looked like perhaps? but if it was dark out and he was tired he may not have really took note of Billy’s clothes?
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Post by kerry on Dec 19, 2020 19:07:18 GMT -5
Long before the end of his life - Jesus was decrepid mentally and physically...he had lived a very long hard life and his recollections generally confused and inconsistent - in a 1920's account Jesus claimed Garrett hip- shot BTK with his rifle ! Paulita and Poe on the other hand retained their accomplished mental faculties till the day they died .... Poe's account of events both on the porch and from outside Maxwell's bedroom -don't necessarily match Garrett's story but are more impartial - Poe claimed he heard the man shot ask Pete in English who were the fellows outside before challenging Garrett in Spanish....Poe also claimed Garrett was first out the door -not Maxwell as Garrett said.
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Post by kerry on Dec 26, 2020 20:36:50 GMT -5
Does anyone believe BTK dressed as a girl at Fort Sumner as Jesus echoed by Chino assert? No way ! Jesus was referring to a male child mascarading as a girl....who as Paulita put it - lived to see nine years -or as long as it was no longer possible to pass off a boy as a girl.
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Post by MissyS on Dec 27, 2020 18:00:51 GMT -5
The reason I posted the Amarillo Daily News article of Jesus Silva done by Vance Johnson was because it was done in 1936 just one year before his interview by Jack Hull in 1937 and there was a lot left out, it could be he forgot to include them or it could also be the way the interview was given or both?, perhaps he was allowed more time to talk in the earlier interview it was more relaxed and he was in a better mood, sometimes when a person isn’t really in the mood to talk he won’t include a whole lot of detail. I didn’t think Jesus Silva changed his story as much as he left things out from interview to interview, his main story of visiting with Billy and then seeing his body really didn’t change that much, he did include more details about it at different times though. Whether believable or not, it’s interesting as to what he said because he knew Billy. Jesus saying Garrett shot from the hip may have been him thinking as Garrett shooting in a sitting position? I don’t know it’s interesting where he got that information?, maybe Garrett told him things? I don’t know why Jesus Silva would lie about Billy dressing up like a girl if he didn’t? If Billy was trying to hide from the law about to find him and there was a dress and bonnet nearby and no pickle barrels to hide in, I can imagine he would be tempted to do whatever he could to evade capture. Baby boys often were put in dresses back then, looking at the old photographs made back in the day, I have seen many toddler boys wearing dresses, it may have something to do with diaper changing made easier or something?, I don’t know?, but it wasn’t that unusual.
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Post by kerry on Dec 28, 2020 0:55:37 GMT -5
Perhaps when Jesus told the reporter Garrett shot BTK in the face with a Winchester on the porch - he was referring to Kip McKinney's shooting of Brushy Bill?...Garrett left his rifle against the wall just inside the door of Maxwell's bedroom according to Poe. Pat must have been decidedly anxious when he was caught sitting on a bed while a man holding a gun unknowingly stood beside Garrett's rifle...but as Poe said-for the second time that night -the man hesitated when he had the drop on two of them and given BTK's reputation - Poe called it devine intervention.
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Post by leeb on Dec 28, 2020 12:56:10 GMT -5
Perhaps when Jesus told the reporter Garrett shot BTK in the face with a Winchester on the porch - he was referring to Kip McKinney's shooting of Brushy Bill?...Garrett left his rifle against the wall just inside the door of Maxwell's bedroom according to Poe. Pat must have been decidedly anxious when he was caught sitting on a bed while a man holding a gun unknowingly stood beside Garrett's rifle...but as Poe said-for the second time that night -the man hesitated when he had the drop on two of them and given BTK's reputation - Poe called it devine intervention. Brushy bill wasn't shot in the face, brushy bill wasn't there, brushy bill was so infatuated with BTk that he actually convinced himself that he was and took on his persona. Brushy bill was an over zealous groupie.
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Post by RonBk on Dec 28, 2020 17:07:13 GMT -5
Perhaps when Jesus told the reporter Garrett shot BTK in the face with a Winchester on the porch - he was referring to Kip McKinney's shooting of Brushy Bill?...Garrett left his rifle against the wall just inside the door of Maxwell's bedroom according to Poe. Pat must have been decidedly anxious when he was caught sitting on a bed while a man holding a gun unknowingly stood beside Garrett's rifle...but as Poe said-for the second time that night -the man hesitated when he had the drop on two of them and given BTK's reputation - Poe called it devine intervention. Brushy bill wasn't shot in the face, brushy bill wasn't there, brushy bill was so infatuated with BTk that he actually convinced himself that he was and took on his persona. Brushy bill was an over zealous groupie. This is clearly your opinion Leeb, and yet you express it as if it were an undisputed fact. As you might have noticed when youve taken part of the discussions on this forum, it is not an undisputed fact. You have every right to express your opinion of course, however I think it would be better if we could all agree upon stating opinions as opinions and facts as facts. The debate would benefit from that, in my opinion. But do as you like, it dont matter that much.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 28, 2020 20:30:19 GMT -5
I guess we all have our on style of debating but it is true we don't need anyone on here telling the rest of us what the "facts" are unless those facts have been proven. No matter how much one believes something to be factual, it should be proven beyond a doubt or it should be recognized as an opinion. Thanks for pointing that out ronnback.
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Post by MissyS on Dec 29, 2020 0:33:43 GMT -5
Another little odd thing that puzzles me is that Jesus Silva said that there wasn’t even one cent in the outlaw’s pockets when the officers searched him, yet it was believed there was some money found on him by Higinio Salazar; a 10 cent bank note, and if I remember right he was supposed to also of had a few other small bank notes of small denominations along with it, if true? According to John Meadows, he said Billy came to his place three or four days after he made his escape from the jail, Meadows told him “Don’t go back to Fort Sumner for if you do Garrett will get you sure if you do, or else you will have to kill him.” Billy told Meadows “ I haven’t any money, what could I do in Mexico with no money?, I’ll have to go back and get a little before I go.” Meadows then said “Sure as you do, Garrett will get you.” and Billy then said, “ I have got too many friends up there and I don’t believe he will get me, and I can stay there a while and get money enough and then go to Mexico.” So Billy broke out of jail in April, it was three months later in July when supposedly his pockets were searched after the shooting, it seems odd to me that there wasn’t more money in Billy’s pockets than not one cent as Jesus Silva said or a few 10 cent bank notes? I find it odd that he was probably working for Pete on his sheep ranch for close to several months, it seems he should have had a little money socked away for his trip to Mexico by then? if it’s true he was carrying out his plan he told Meadows he was going to do? I find it a little puzzling.
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Post by kerry on Dec 29, 2020 1:39:56 GMT -5
New Mexico territory -like the rest of the Union -was flooded with conterfeit paper money...it infected everybody but didn't kill anyone. After capture at Stin king Springs - Billy Wilson was accused of passing conterfeit 100 dollar bills... he had recently sold a bisiness.BTK and his gang were also said to be passing these bills at the time -even James Dolan was taken to Court by a customer who received a counterfeit bill from his store!If ao - BTK should have had some of these bills on him .. it didn't take many cattle to add up to 100 dollars and BTK was in the cattle business.There must have been some really large pots on the gambling table of them there days !
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Post by kerry on Dec 29, 2020 2:23:30 GMT -5
For 100 years -it was regarded as an indisputable fact that there was one and only one photo of BTK...it is now clear for 100 years - families associated with BTK kept far better images of their cherished friend to themselves. The auction of the shabby old tin type showing a tired gaunt cowboy with a sagging jaw finally revealing his front teeth...since then several good photos have come out of the wood work -which begs the question -how many photos have been lost forever? Only one in four of the Fort Sumner tin type survived....photograhy was the sensation of the time and clearly far more prevalent than we think today...
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Post by kerry on Dec 29, 2020 2:49:14 GMT -5
Perhaps of greater significance from Jesus' newspaper interviews -is his reference to a young cattle detective making a nuisance of himself in Fort Sumner at the time -Poe represented Canadian River cattlemen...so that just leaves John Chisum who John Miller had worked for.Was Miller still working for Chisum or after the bounty? At the time Chisum had sold his business but was in the process of acculmulating the cattle numbers agreed on with the new owners and was particularly sensitive to any losses.
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Post by leeb on Dec 29, 2020 2:52:16 GMT -5
Another little odd thing that puzzles me is that Jesus Silva said that there wasn’t even one cent in the outlaw’s pockets when the officers searched him, yet it was believed there was some money found on him by Higinio Salazar; a 10 cent bank note, and if I remember right he was supposed to also of had a few other small bank notes of small denominations along with it, if true? According to John Meadows, he said Billy came to his place three or four days after he made his escape from the jail, Meadows told him “Don’t go back to Fort Sumner for if you do Garrett will get you sure if you do, or else you will have to kill him.” Billy told Meadows “ I haven’t any money, what could I do in Mexico with no money?, I’ll have to go back and get a little before I go.” Meadows then said “Sure as you do, Garrett will get you.” and Billy then said, “ I have got too many friends up there and I don’t believe he will get me, and I can stay there a while and get money enough and then go to Mexico.” So Billy broke out of jail in April, it was three months later in July when supposedly his pockets were searched after the shooting, it seems odd to me that there wasn’t more money in Billy’s pockets than not one cent as Jesus Silva said or a few 10 cent bank notes? I find it odd that he was probably working for Pete on his sheep ranch for close to several months, it seems he should have had a little money socked away for his trip to Mexico by then? if it’s true he was carrying out his plan he told Meadows he was going to do? I find it a little puzzling. A good friend of mine pointed out an article where Deluvina states that she sewed Billy's money into the waistband of his trousers. Is it true i don't know, is it possible, maybe?
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Post by leeb on Dec 29, 2020 3:21:34 GMT -5
A good friend of mine pointed out an article where Deluvina states that she sewed money into the waistband of Billy's trousers. Is it true I don't know, is it possible, maybe?
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