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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 31, 2011 10:50:55 GMT -5
I'd sure be interested in getting some other opinions about July 14, 1881 in Fort Sumner. As far as I know, no one who was in the area reported hearing more than 3 shots that night. Garrett said there were just two and according to his story, those two shots would have come within a couple of seconds from each other. Herein lies a major question about Brushy's version of what happened. He says his friend Billy Barlow was shot on Maxwell's porch. He says he heard one shot then jumped up and headed for the door and heard two more. If Barlow was shot on the porch and had no weapon, then why was there any need for Garrett or his deputies to fire two more shots? Then Brushy runs toward Maxwell's and shot #4 hits him in the jaw, knocking out a tooth. At this point, if Garrett thinks he's killed Billy, why would anyone be firing at Brushy who is running toward Maxwell's? Morrison reported feeling the depression in Brushy's jaw that was caused by that bullet, yet no photos show any evidence of such a depression, let alone the terrible scar that one would expect. Now back to Ft. Sumner, Brushy says he started firing into the shadows with both guns and is being fired back at, bullets flying all around. He heads for a fence and gets hit in the shoulder. At this point there's been a dozen or more shots fired. Then as Brushy is running away he is firing over his shoulder until his six gun is empty. I would have to assume this means both six guns. Now assuming he would have started with both guns fully loaded, he's fired 12 shots himself.
So according to Brushy's story, there were something like two dozen shots or more. Yet no one who was in town that night ever said anything about hearing all that???
So here's the question. Was Brushy completely lying about what happened, exaggerating, or was there some kind of hush order Garrett successfully forced on all of Fort Sumner?
I have an opinion on this, but I'm wondering what everyone else thinks.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 2, 2011 0:55:09 GMT -5
Here's a thought regarding my above post. Brushy never said Barlow didn't have a gun. The man that was killed was allegedly carrying a .41 caliber pistol. Maybe Barlow did have a gun and maybe he fired at Garrett or his deputies, on the porch, and one of them fired the fatal shot that killed him. McKinney reportedly told his family years later that "he" killed a mexican by mistake and the Kid got away. That could explain the 3 shots and the dead Barlow.
As for all the other shots Brushy said were fired, they were either an exaggeration on his part or a fairly significant number of ear witnesses were convinced they should never ever say anything about the extended gunfight Brushy described. I think it was mostly exaggeration by Brushy. He wouldn't be the first Old West character to try and make his exploits sound more heroic than they really were.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 2, 2011 15:15:34 GMT -5
I wouldn't even be surprised if the real truth was that Brushy (Billy that is) and Garrett did conspire to help fake Billy's death. That could explain why there are so many different versions of what happened that night. They're all cover up stories and when everybody involved starts "making up" their story, the stories all come out different. Just a thought. What I really think is the most likely truth is that Barlow stepped onto the porch, was confronted by the deputies, he got off a shot and they returned fire. He took a bullet from McKinney. They quickly drug the body inside Maxwell's room and while a crowd gathered outside, they discussed a cover up, including Maxwell and Deluvina and Sanchez, who had all seen the body. Billy ran outside, saw Barlow's body and took off, injuring his forehead and jaw when he jumped the fence. The gunfight Brushy described was fiction, to cover up his failure to fight that night. Not that he should have, after all he had no chance in the dark against three armed lawmen. Is that all "rationalization?" Of course it is. But so is all the other theories of what happened that night. I just don't believe there was that extended gunfight that Brushy described. Somebody from Ft. Sumner would have said so.
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Post by lacowboy on Sept 9, 2011 20:04:16 GMT -5
Here is more to think about that night. I have examined plans of Ft Sumner as it was when it was still a military post. I believe I can see the existence of an ice house in or around the Officers quarters. Why then did Garrett have the body buried so fast if he had in fact killed Billy?
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Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Jun 25, 2012 10:04:24 GMT -5
I have looked at the Billy the Kid case for years and to tell you the truth, I have found unanswered questions regarding the alleged death of Billy the Kid. If Billy really was killed that night, why did he act so completely out of character? Everyone who knew the Kid remembered him for how cool and calm he was under fire, and for the way he "shot first and asked questions later." A look at the gunfights he participated in throughout his life supports this contention. Yet the man Garrett killed acted far more naive and inexperienced than the quick-thinking gunfighter Billy was. Why did he not recognize deputies Poe and McKinney for what they were? In a tight-knit community such as Sumner, two Anglo lawmen standing on the town patriarch's porch in the middle of the night would be hard to mistake for anything but what they were. Why did he back into a darkened bedroom that could present more danger than what he faced on the porch? If he felt threatened, as pulling his pistol indicates, why not flee back where he came, into the shadows, rather than allow himself to be cornered? Did Billy really have a gun with him when he went to Maxwell's? Logic could be argued either way to support him having or not having one. He was the most wanted man in the territory and it would be in his character to take his gun everywhere. On the other hand, he was only going to a friend's house a few yards away and had no obvious reason to be fearful. Regardless, if Billy did have a gun, why didn't he use it? Again, this brings up the issue of him being out of character. Also, why was the gun he allegedly had reported at different times to be two different types (one a .41 caliber, the other a .38)? Furthermore, neither of the two reported guns were guns Billy was known to favor. When he was captured at Stinking Springs, a .44 caliber pistol, serial number 0361, was confiscated from him, and he was reported to have taken two .44s with him when he escaped from the Lincoln County courthouse in April 1881. Why would Billy speak to Poe, McKinney, and Maxwell only in Spanish? It is logical he would address the two strangers on the porch in Spanish first, seeing as how Sumner was a mostly Hispanic community. However, after receiving no answer from them, he would likely address them in English. When it comes to Maxwell, there would really be no logical reason for Billy to address Maxwell in the secondary language of both men, especially in so serious a circumstance. How exactly did the man Garrett killed manage to get past Poe and McKinney, two well-armed men, on the porch and into the bedroom? How is it that they were not able to prevent him from entering the room? This is very out of character for two experienced lawmen to allow a man they saw coming get behind them. Even if Billy was indeed armed with a pistol, both deputies were doubtless still better armed than he. Although neither Poe nor McKinney had ever seen the Kid before, they had to have had at least a basic description of him. Apparently though, as Poe himself claimed, he did not believe this man was Billy, but possibly an employee of Maxwell's. Why would he think that, when he knew the Kid was in town and knew his description? Could it be that Poe and McKinney did stop the man, talked to him, and realized he wasn't the Kid, so they allowed him to pass by? ;D Why do Garrett's and Poe's accounts differ as to who tipped them off to the Kid's presence in Sumner? Could it be, as has been theorized, that it was Pete Maxwell himself who notified Garrett? At the time, Billy was allegedly in Sumner only for Pete's younger sister, Paulita, who was possibly carrying Billy's unborn child. Pete strongly disapproved of this relationship, so could it be he notified Garrett in order to put a stop to it? Pete never talked of the shooting publicly; could it be he didn't want to expose his complicity in the matter and his betrayal of the Kid? Why do the accounts differ on who was first to enter Maxwell's bedroom following the shooting? Paco Anaya claimed Deluvina Maxwell was the first to investigate due to the lawmen's fear of Billy (or whoever) being merely wounded and lying in wait. Garrett claimed he, his deputies, and Maxwell re-entered together, but only after Maxwell held a candle to the window from the outside, providing them a clear view of the prostrate body. Lastly, Jesus Silva claimed it was he who was first in the room. Why did it take Pat Garrett so long to collect the official reward money that was offered for the Kid? Although he applied for it almost immediately after the alleged killing of the Kid, it was not granted to him until Feb. 18, 1882. Acting Governor W. G. Ritch, who was essential in getting the reward offered in the first place, did virtually everything in his power, trying to find any viable loophole, to get out of paying. Could it be that the officials doubted the Kid was really dead, or was it simply a case of cheap and/or crooked politicians trying to demur from their obligations? What about the other deputy there that night, Thomas McKinney? He never spoke publicly about the shooting, although various second-hand sources claim that, in private, he did tell the "real" story of what happened. According to miner Frederick Grey, who allegedly knew McKinney, the deputy told him that he, Garrett, and Poe went into the bedroom of Paulita Maxwell, tied and gagged her, and when Billy came by later that night, Garrett shot him from concealment. Although at first listen this does seem more likely than the versions Garrett and Poe told, on closer inspection it loses credibility. Surely, Pete Maxwell would not have permitted his sister to be abused in such manner, and, even if he did, Paulita herself would have been very vocal of her mistreatment. According to some McKinney relatives, he told a different story from the one he reportedly told Grey. In this version, McKinney stated that he himself killed the man in the Maxwell bedroom. This man was discovered to not be Billy but a Mexican, while the real Kid escaped. Another story that McKinney reportedly told other relatives was that Garrett shot the Mexican on the porch, while the real Kid escaped. Why did McKinney tell all these different versions in secret? Whatever the reason, the differing claims he made tend to destroy his credibility completely. In Aug. 1882, Garrett encountered Joe Antrim, Billy's brother, at a hotel in Trindad, Colorado. Although there had been earlier reports, perhaps unfounded, that Joe was seeking vengeance on Garrett, the two retired to a private room and talked for nearly two hours about something. Following their meeting, the two shook hands and parted amicably. What did the two discuss in private? How was Garrett able to get this man, who allegedly wanted revenge for the death of his brother, to part with him on such friendly terms? So, there you have it: all the unanswered questions of the July 14 1881 shooting laid out. I've done my best here to represent an unbiased viewpoint, and hopefully, that has been accomplished. The questions presented here will probably remain unanswered forever. And maybe that's a fitting end for the life of Billy the Kid, with both his entrance and exit in history being shrouded in mystery.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 25, 2012 19:51:55 GMT -5
Billy, I think I can answer most of your questions. It will take me awhile to answer all that you have ask so give me a little time. I am not as good at writing as you and Wayne.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 26, 2012 21:34:43 GMT -5
Billy, I am trying to figure out how to answer your questions. I would like to type Garrett's and Poe's accounts from their books as they state it best but I don't think you can do that. If you have a copy of Garrett's and Poe's books, I think many of your questions will be answered. Read what they say and not all the things people state they said. (A good book is Pat F. Garrett's Billy,The Kid with notes by Frederick Nolan).
As for the gun, Garrett said Billy had on him a self-cocker, calibre .41. Have you ever heard the Cherokee Davis Story? It is said that Billy rode into Davis's camp along the Pecos River after the fourth of July. Davis had been given a new Colt .41 Thunderer on the fourth of July and it was hanging on a wagon brake. Billy stopped for a meal and both noticed and admired Cherokee's piston. On his departure, Billy strapped on Cherokee's weapon. leaving his own Colt. 45 with Davis. Billy proposed a tempory loan of the weapon to himself and Cherokee readily agreed. (That was July 1881 and Billy was killed on July 14, 1881. Cherokee never got his pistol back)
Year's later the Colt. 45 was acquired from Cherokee Davis by an El Paso Lawyer. I have seen the .45 and have pictures of it but can not post them. Some where on the computer, there may be a picture of it.
I have always been told and read that Garrett sold Billy's Thunderer and a rifle taken from him when he was killed to Billy Burt. Burt was a Clerk in Lincoln. There is said to have been a bill of sale to Billy Burt at one time but I have not been able to find it. I did find however and have a copy of where Garrett let the Lincoln County Commissioners know that he had captured property taked from Frank Wheeler and one gun and six shooter captured of William Bonney which await your orders. /s/ signed Pat F. Garrett.
I have a copy of the Report of P.F. Garrett of Captured property and it just states: Approved & Sale ordered /s/ W.M. Paul and another signature.
I wish it had more info. on the guns and serial numbers. I still hope to find the bill of sale someday and have people looking for it.
After Billy Burt got the guns, we don't know what happen to them. The sad thing is I was in the Museum in Lincoln and remember seeing all the guns in the late 1950's but the ones I liked the best belong to Sheriff Bent. In early 1971, someone broke into the Lincoln Court House and took all the guns. I have the newspaper article but they only state Billy's Pistol Stolen From Museum. This was April 29, 1971. I wish I could remember what Billy's Pistol looked like. I don't remember if it was a Thunderer or a 1873 .45.
As for Billy being out of character, I don't quite agree. If you read Poe's and Garrett's statement, I think you will find Billy acted like Billy. The thing I find most about Billy being out of character is why he remained in New Mexico and of all places, Fort Sumner. What was he doing there. Why didn't he go to Mexico like most people thought he would. (I know everyone state's it was because of a women.)
I would like to hear your stories on the gun fights Billy had.
As for Kip McKinney, I have read a few things that he said and he did state to a English Reporter about them tying Paulita up and killing Billy with a shotgun. If I remeber right, that was in 1909. Here I think McKinney was just messing with the reporter. After all everyone had heard the other stories and I feel he may have wanted something new. Just a guess. As for some of the other statements that you state McKinney said, I would like to see them. I have seen a newspaper article in Carlsbad where Kip said that Garrett cryed like a baby when he killed Billy. I have never seen McKinney say that Billy wasn't killed. If you can find were he said that and not someone saying he told them or someone told them, I would love to see it.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 26, 2012 21:50:49 GMT -5
One thing I left out is after doing research and seeing the items from the Maxwell Bedroom, I feel that Billy may have got off one shot. In both Garrett's and Poe's stories, they talk about three shoots being fired. Poe states that one bullet hit the head board on the bed. Garret and Poe state that they only found where two bullets had been fired. In one of Deluvina's statements she talks about the bullet hole in the wash stand. Garrett nor Poe talked about the wash stand. Could it be that Billy was backing up away from Garrett, cocked his pistol and when Garrett's bullet hit Billy he fired as Garrett was going to the side and hit the head board? (Billy was use to a single action pistol. I have shot many of them and it's still a habbit to even cock a double action pistol.) If the hole in the wash stand is real, it may have happen. I know everyone is going to say there is no bullet hole in the head board but I feel the center section of the head board may be missing if this is even the head board that was in the room.
Just a thought.
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Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Jun 27, 2012 4:23:44 GMT -5
If you can find were he said that and not someone saying he told them or someone told them, I would love to see it. Here ya go! www.angelfire.com/mi2/billythekid/mckinney.htmlwww.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=82881777They are not interviews but that is because he only told friends and familes of his. He never spoke publicly about the shooting, although various second-hand sources claim that, in private, he did tell the "real" story of what happened. According to miner Frederick Grey, who knew McKinney, the deputy told him that he, Garrett, and Poe went into the bedroom of Paulita Maxwell, tied and gagged her, and when Billy came by later that night, Garrett shot him from concealment. Although at first listen this does seem more likely than the versions Garrett and Poe told, on closer inspection it loses credibility. Surely, Pete Maxwell would not have permitted his sister to be abused in such manner, and, even if he did, Paulita herself would not have kept quiet about it. According to some McKinney relatives, he told a different story from the one he reportedly told Grey. In this version, McKinney stated that he, not Garrett, killed the man in the Maxwell bedroom. This man was discovered to not be Billy, while the real Kid escaped. Another story that McKinney reportedly told other relatives was that Garrett shot the wrong man on the porch, while the real Kid escaped. It may just be me but why did McKinney tell all these different versions in secret? Whatever the reason, the differing claims he made tend to destroy his credibility completely.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 27, 2012 7:18:09 GMT -5
Thanks Billy,
I too have visited with some of the McKinneys. They have given me some info. on him that I have never seen in print. I had read that Kip was kin to Thomas O'Folliard and I was told how that was. Also in the articles, they have Buck Edwards for the man that Kip killed on May 1881. That is wrong, his name was Joseph Edwards but was called Bob. He is buried on a friends ranch that Edwards use to own. His wife later married a Thayer. I know the family and have talked to them. I also have taken pictures of Kip's grave in Carlsbad.
The only thing I can say about all these stories is that I can tell you all kinds of stories. I think that after Burns came out with his book and Billy feaver took hold, everyone wanted to be a part of it. Billy stayed at every home in this area and beyond, everyone knew him even if they didn't live here until after Billy was killed. Everyone had a story. All I can tell you is when you do research on some of these people you find a different story. Again, I have never read anything that Kip himself stated where Billy was not killed.
Tell me a little more on Frederick Grey. I don't remember this name. Where was he from. I have all kinds of info. on people from the White Oaks area and know people still living there that their Kin go way back. I know about Seaborn Gray. He was a cousin to Pat Garrett.
Thanks for the articles. I don't put a lot of trust in angelfire or findagrave. Anyone can write what ever they want on it. It's like the articles on John Collins. I have a file full on info. that is quite different on Mr. Collins.
Thanks again, nmjames
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Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Jun 27, 2012 7:32:02 GMT -5
Tell me a little more on Frederick Grey. I don't remember this name. Where was he from. From what I know, Frederick Grey was an wandering Englishman who wrote down his interview with McKinney in a little-known book, published in 1912, called “Seeking Fortune in America.” www.amazon.com/Seeking-fortune-America-W-Grey/dp/117719032X
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Post by nmjames on Jun 27, 2012 8:10:45 GMT -5
Thanks Billy,
I didn't remember the Englishman's name but that's the Englishman that I talked about in my post last night. I have a friend that writes articles every week on the old west. He has wrote about Mr. Gray. I will check with him.
Thanks again, nmjames
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Post by Beaker on Feb 6, 2019 9:40:26 GMT -5
Of all of the outlaws that were killed and had post mortem photo. I would think that as famous as Billy became there would be a photo. Even the rookie outlaws in gangs had their death photo taken. Billy being so famous why wouldn't there be a death photo? Burying someone so quick and no photo or even public display of body seems fishy. Some of those things were done for popular outlaws Billy shouldn't of been any different. Anyway if it was known that Billy frequently visited there. Why wouldn't they insert a low profile informant at Ft. Sumner to report to the law that he's there? Or even try to bribe someone to tell the law when he is there. Didn't Billy and Garrett ride together for a bit in a gang? Then Garrett went all noble and they made him sheriff to catch Billy because he knew the way Billy did things since they rode together. Maybe they did screw up and kill the wrong man and Billy escaped because of hearing gun shots and fled. I would think if he was there with some other regulators there would of been a big shoot out but maybe since he was alone and it was dark decided to skin out when he heard shots. Could of been someone else going to get some meat and why of all things would Paulita or anyone else there would save a common meat cutting knife and then later say it was in his hand at time of death. Why not keep his hat or jacket or something else for a keep sake to remember him by? Just some things I've wondered about his death and other things. I have a photo of 7 men and 4 of them resemble the 5 men in the Billy,Garrett photo. Not sure who the other 3 men are. But one on end seems to want what ever is hanging on his vest to be totally seen in the photo. Hand is purposely exposing it. 4 men are practically in same positions in both photos. At least I feel they resemble each other.
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Post by leeb on Feb 6, 2019 12:58:09 GMT -5
Maybe someone took a banknote from his pocket as a keepsake??
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 20:58:53 GMT -5
I'm of the opinion that more than one person got capped that night in Fort Sumner. Hence why you have differing accounts as to The Kid's appearance at death.
One source says that he grew a beard & got tanned, like a Mexican. Other sources mention NOTHING of the sort. So maybe, somebody else was buried that same day as Billy The Kid and the witness of that burial thought it was The Kid and told the newspaper that's what he looked like at death.
Now, while I don't believe John Miller's claim that he was The Kid, he did say (as did his wife) that they were both in Fort Sumner on the night Garrett came out shooting. The Las Vegas NM register noted Miller as having a chest wound from a gunshot at his wedding.
It's possible that he was there, since there is ZERO evidence of Miller existing anywhere prior to August 1881. If he was, it could mean there was plenty of shots fired all over town and he was the victim of a stray bullet that missed it's target.
The Mexican individual, some have said, was a servant working for the Maxwell's and that he was assumed to be a threat because he was carrying a knife, supposedly to get the beef.
It's possible that others were shot or killed that night--- hence why so many claimants, despite logistics, all had virtually identical stories. Miller, Brushy, Fiddling Smith, etc all basically told the same story that it was a Mexican who died that night and not Billy The Kid.
I think The Kid, and possibly several others, were shot (injured) or killed by Garrett & Poe and their associates, and I'm sure a few Hispanic residents also took up arms. Though it's not noted, I'm thinking that a big skirmish or ruckus occurred following the death of The Kid & the unnamed Mexican. Hence why Garrett and Poe housed themselves in Maxwell's place because it was as good a defense fort as any they could have found since those places were made out of basically cob walls (like the Alamo).
Jesus bless you all 😊
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