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Post by chivato88 on Sept 17, 2020 4:01:18 GMT -5
To personally know the McSween house the cut off date was 1878 after which it no longer existed.I believe Susan is on Billy's right in the Croquet picture -that she paid for his lawyers -and that she wrote the letters to the Governor...not because he couldn't write but because she could put a nicely written plea for clemmency -there some experts who suspect the letters to be written by a woman... The problem with the theory of Susan McSween writing the letters to the Governor is that Dr. Hoyt while in Tascosa with Billy the Kid, had received a hand written receipt for a horse that Billy gave to Dr. Hoyt, the writing and signature looks similar on it compared to the letters written to Governor Lew Wallace from Billy, and McSween was not mentioned to have been in Tascosa at that time to have helped Billy to write the receipt, Hoyt said in his book that Billy he gave him the horse and wrote out the receipt, because of that receipt I believe Billy wrote the other letters also. In one letter dated March 4, 1881 written from the Santa Fe Jail in it Billy wrote “I am not treated right by Sherman, he lets every stranger that comes to see me through curiosity in to see me, but will not let a single one of my friends in, not even an attorney.” From the letter none of Billy’s friends were allowed in to see him at that particular time to have helped him write that letter. Yes, and Gale Cooper solved the case in her book, Billy did write is own letters, even the one he wrote in jail with handcuffs the handwriting is pretty much identical to the other letters
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Post by tboor74 on Sept 17, 2020 4:11:49 GMT -5
Remaining neutral I agree that Brushy could have learned of the layout of the McSween house via his grandfather or father, that is the simplest way to join the dots. Would discussions have been so in depth regarding layout? Who knows, possibly?
Moving onto the next step....where did Brushy come by the (at the time almost unknown) story of the scarf and the tintype from Deluvina Maxwell?
Or How did he know where Yginio Salazar lived back in 1881 or the trail to the house?
I'm interested in reverse engineering the things that Brushy knew (when he shouldn't have) to see where it goes.
There's obviously the things he contradicted in the 'official' narrative which turn out to be true also......one a time.
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Post by kerry on Sept 17, 2020 12:02:44 GMT -5
Hi Missy....I just don't see BTK being much of a letter writer - putting thoughts into words into sentences in a hand expertly described as your long slow southern style -Hey! not as fantastic as omniscient Judge Holden speaking Dutch.. Susan McSween was part of BTK's world and Brushy appears to have visited her after she became the cattle Queen of New Mexico...which suggests this also. Thanks Missy - two out of three is good enough for me - cheers!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 15:47:04 GMT -5
Remaining neutral I agree that Brushy could have learned of the layout of the McSween house via his grandfather or father, that is the simplest way to join the dots. Would discussions have been so in depth regarding layout? Who knows, possibly? Moving onto the next step....where did Brushy come by the (at the time almost unknown) story of the scarf and the tintype from Deluvina Maxwell? Or How did he know where Yginio Salazar lived back in 1881 or the trail to the house? I'm interested in reverse engineering the things that Brushy knew (when he shouldn't have) to see where it goes. There's obviously the things he contradicted in the 'official' narrative which turn out to be true also......one a time. Again, if Henry (and by proxy Brushy) are related to Billy The Kid then it's not a stretch to imagine cousin Henry seeing such places (ie, Salazar) or Brushy himself depending on what date of birth you wish to believe. As for the scarf story, I'm sure the story floated among friends and relatives long before historians ever came across the letter in Indiana talking about the scarf. I know that sounds so simple and straight forward that it's probably repugnant upon hearing it, but it does make the most sense. A family member most likely would've known such details as how someone got a particular item and where a cousins friend lived at. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you and Jesus Christ Almighty God bless your family 😊
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Post by nmjames on Sept 18, 2020 0:12:35 GMT -5
tboor74:
Where did Brushy come by the (at the time almost unknown) story of the scarf and the tintype from Deluvina Maxwell? Answer: The Saga of Billy The Kid, Walter Noble Burns, 1926 Page 195.
nmjames
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Sept 18, 2020 11:49:35 GMT -5
tboor74: Where did Brushy come by the (at the time almost unknown) story of the scarf and the tintype from Deluvina Maxwell? Answer: The Saga of Billy The Kid, Walter Noble Burns, 1926 Page 195. nmjames "Alias Billy the Kid", p.60 "There is a possibility that he did write down some of the things he was trying to hide. Three of his notebooks have disappeared. Morrison had a brief look at them, but the old man would not allow him to make a detailed examination or take many notes. After his death, Morrison and Mrs. Roberts looked for those books and could not find them. Morrison thinks Bill destroyed them just before he left fot the disastrous interview with the governor in Santa Fe, thinking that they might be incriminating evidence should he be arrested and sent to jail, as he feared he might be."
The other logical explanation for the three missing notebooks is that they contained excerpts from "The Saga of Billy the Kid", available to refresh Brushy's memory before each interview with Morrison.
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Post by kerry on Sept 18, 2020 13:45:36 GMT -5
The scarf incident was while BTK was locked up at Fort Sumner in transit from Stinking Springs...of interest to the Posse -was the romantic farewell given him by Deluvina...in the telling and in time -this became Paulita Maxwell because Deluvina was 5 years older than Billy and a Native American -even Paulita when listing the local Mexican beauties of Billy's social circle-does not mention her adopted sister.Like Poe -Paulita does refer to a successful business woman living near Las Vegas who can only be Susan McSween at White Oaks...quite a compliment from Poe who was an outstanding businessman in his own right.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 14:06:15 GMT -5
tboor74: Where did Brushy come by the (at the time almost unknown) story of the scarf and the tintype from Deluvina Maxwell? Answer: The Saga of Billy The Kid, Walter Noble Burns, 1926 Page 195. nmjames "Alias Billy the Kid", p.60 "There is a possibility that he did write down some of the things he was trying to hide. Three of his notebooks have disappeared. Morrison had a brief look at them, but the old man would not allow him to make a detailed examination or take many notes. After his death, Morrison and Mrs. Roberts looked for those books and could not find them. Morrison thinks Bill destroyed them just before he left fot the disastrous interview with the governor in Santa Fe, thinking that they might be incriminating evidence should he be arrested and sent to jail, as he feared he might be."
The other logical explanation for the three missing notebooks is that they contained excerpts from "The Saga of Billy the Kid", available to refresh Brushy's memory before each interview with Morrison.
That is a possibility to "keep the story straight," but I will say in defense of Brushy Bill Roberts that even I have to keep notes about family memories or genealogy, etc--- in order to tell the facts correctly. Most people do. So the argument that he kept notes to keep a fictional story straight before Morrison would show up to interview him--- which may or may not be true--- is a weak at best argument for or against Brushy Bill Roberts. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you and Jesus Christ Almighty God bless your family 😊
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Post by leeb on Sept 18, 2020 14:26:30 GMT -5
"Alias Billy the Kid", p.60 "There is a possibility that he did write down some of the things he was trying to hide. Three of his notebooks have disappeared. Morrison had a brief look at them, but the old man would not allow him to make a detailed examination or take many notes. After his death, Morrison and Mrs. Roberts looked for those books and could not find them. Morrison thinks Bill destroyed them just before he left fot the disastrous interview with the governor in Santa Fe, thinking that they might be incriminating evidence should he be arrested and sent to jail, as he feared he might be."
The other logical explanation for the three missing notebooks is that they contained excerpts from "The Saga of Billy the Kid", available to refresh Brushy's memory before each interview with Morrison.
That is a possibility to "keep the story straight," but I will say in defense of Brushy Bill Roberts that even I have to keep notes about family memories or genealogy, etc--- in order to tell the facts correctly. Most people do. So the argument that he kept notes to keep a fictional story straight before Morrison would show up to interview him--- which may or may not be true--- is a weak at best argument for or against Brushy Bill Roberts. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you and Jesus Christ Almighty God bless your family 😊 brushy wasn't Billy but in his mind he actually thought he was?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 15:24:17 GMT -5
There is that possibility that his belief is the result of some mental state. Besides his family saying that, there is the testimony of a woman who lived in Hamilton who recalled that Brushy was claiming to be Billy The Kid even then--- which goes against the story William Morrison was told that Brushy kept quiet about being The Kid.
The woman's name was Elreeta Weathers, and she gave her testimony in 1998 for the "People and Places: Gazetteer of Hamilton County Texas", which was later put on a genealogy website:
"I don't know anything about the validity of Brushy Bill's claims to be Billy The Kid, because I have not studied them.
I do remember that he was a wiry little man, whom I thought was crazy. Mother and I would do anything we could to avoid being trapped by Brushy Bill, as we knew him.
In retrospect, I would now classify his behavior as a form of dementia. We did not believe most of his claims and did not like to be the audience for his rantings and ravings. We pitied the other poor souls whom he did trap.
Roberts would "trap" people between himself and one of the light posts around the square. Once someone was "trapped," Brushy Bill would begin his tirade about being Billy The Kid, displaying his small wrists* and explaining how he had once slipped out of a pair of handcuffs to escape.
He also told us that he made his own shirt... and either he or Mrs. Roberts obviously did. His shirts were always constructed of brightly colored and patterned fabric. At the time it was not possible to buy shirts made with such designs. The shirts were likely made from quadrica, a broadcloth type of fabric available at the time.
The diminutive, mustached Mr. Roberts always wore a western hat and tied a red kerchief around his neck. Mr. Roberts died while I was still in highschool."
Mind you, Roberts went from Gladewater to Hamilton later to move to Hico. So Mrs Weathers recollections of Brushy are from the time he married Malinda to August of 1949 when he moved to Hico.
Census records show that she was indeed a resident of Hamilton in the timeframe in question. Now I did mark something in her testimony with a "*" because it must be noted that Morrison described Brushy as having large wrists and small hands, so clearly the woman made a mistake in recounting events.
However, the details of his clothing style is so precise and accurate that the whole substance of her testimony shows that she is giving a genuine statement of the facts.
The reason why I say that is because it is a fact of nature that women give far better, accurate testimonies than men because women pay attention to far greater details than men do. Cold case homicide detective J. Warner Wallace talks about this all the time in his Christian apologetic work.
Now, could it be that residents assumed Brushy Bill Roberts was mentally ill on the basis of his claims? Probably. Even if he was Billy The Kid, you wouldn't blame people for thinking you were crazy because it was common knowledge Billy The Kid was dead.
But what gives the mental illness argument credibility is that Brushy told Morrison he never told anyone the truth, not even his wife--- yet he was telling people he was Billy The Kid for years, and there's no way his wife wouldn't have heard townspeople talking about her husband being crazy believing himself to be Billy The Kid.
Furthermore, if one looks up Brushy Bill Roberts and his time in Gladewater Texas, there exists at least one newspaper article that says Brushy Bill Roberts was "an Indian fighter who worked for Pawnee Bill," and noted he was giving shooting demonstrations.
So it seems apparent that one thing advanced psychologically from one thing to the next and the next. Now that doesn't mean Roberts wasn't an Indian fighter or wasn't an employee of Pawnee Bill--- but within a few short years he goes from one extreme to another, or so it seems.
Now, if you do a comparative timeline between J. Frank Dalton and Brushy Bill Roberts, you will see where Dalton "comes out" as Jesse James in April or May of 1948. Could it be the two men simultaneously "came out" as the men they claimed to be coincidentally or purposely?
I lean towards the latter, only because Brushy Bill and Dalton were friends as far back as Gladewater. So that would be evidence against the mental illness argument, because it's clear that the "coming out" was orchestrated between the two men.
After all, it was "Joe Hines" who told Morrison to go to Missouri to talk to J. Frank Dalton to tell him where Billy The Kid lived. A fact of history that men like WC Jameson and others refuse to admit happened.
That being said, I think some people tell a story long enough they start to believe it themselves and it becomes a delusion brought on by themselves. In Brushy's case, I think it became that over time, but I also believe somewhere down deep he always knew it wasn't true.
I know the Brushy-Was-Billy people will get mad about me saying that but there are far too many flags up about the whole thing.
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊
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Post by kerry on Sept 18, 2020 16:31:06 GMT -5
Hi Rufus - like your second to last paragragh..it is the reason I don't venture into pyschoananysis to make pivotal assumptions..that's too scary for me and tends to reveal as much about the analysist! One exception I think -would be Clay Allison...a good rancher but one who Lincoln could be grateful -stayed in Colfax.Clay was a legend in his own time only to be largely forgotten in time...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 21:18:06 GMT -5
This theory that Brushy was mentally ill and told a lie for so long that he believed it does sound believable to me. Perhaps he was delusional but just extremely intelligent and Morrison did fall for his act. But if Morrison had spent enough time with the guy I'm sure he would have sensed that Brushy was mentally ill?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 22:25:21 GMT -5
This theory that Brushy was mentally ill and told a lie for so long that he believed it does sound believable to me. Perhaps he was delusional but just extremely intelligent and Morrison did fall for his act. But if Morrison had spent enough time with the guy I'm sure he would have sensed that Brushy was mentally ill? I'm reminded of Anna Anderson, the woman who claimed to be Anastasia. She was initially found in an asylum because she attempted suicide. This woman fooled many people, including myself, that she was who she claimed. It wasn't until the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Philip Mountbatten, gave his DNA to test against a couple of remains found in the woods in Russia confirmed that the entire Russian monarchy was indeed killed. Anastasia never lived on as Anna Anderson. There are people who are mentally off who are borderline genius. There are people who are mentally unfit but people just consider them eccentric. Howard Hughes fooled the world for decades but the man had serious issues with OCD. Marc Somers and Howie Mandel, too, have horrible OCD problems. Again, I think Morrison was all too obliging or accepting that this was the truth--- and the more he heard, the more he believed, and he became blind to any kind of eccentric behavior Brushy Bill Roberts had. Not to say that Brushy Bill Roberts wasn't Billy The Kid, he could've been and it's possible that Billy The Kid ended up eccentric. If you survived X, Y, and Z and had to live a different life and couldn't be around your old friends, etc--- that could very well cause a mental problem. Then again, what's more likely? Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you and Jesus Christ Almighty God bless your family 😊
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Post by tboor74 on Sept 19, 2020 2:19:30 GMT -5
This theory that Brushy was mentally ill and told a lie for so long that he believed it does sound believable to me. Perhaps he was delusional but just extremely intelligent and Morrison did fall for his act. But if Morrison had spent enough time with the guy I'm sure he would have sensed that Brushy was mentally ill? I'm reminded of Anna Anderson, the woman who claimed to be Anastasia. She was initially found in an asylum because she attempted suicide. This woman fooled many people, including myself, that she was who she claimed. It wasn't until the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Philip Mountbatten, gave his DNA to test against a couple of remains found in the woods in Russia confirmed that the entire Russian monarchy was indeed killed. Anastasia never lived on as Anna Anderson. There are people who are mentally off who are borderline genius. There are people who are mentally unfit but people just consider them eccentric. Howard Hughes fooled the world for decades but the man had serious issues with OCD. Marc Somers and Howie Mandel, too, have horrible OCD problems. Again, I think Morrison was all too obliging or accepting that this was the truth--- and the more he heard, the more he believed, and he became blind to any kind of eccentric behavior Brushy Bill Roberts had. Not to say that Brushy Bill Roberts wasn't Billy The Kid, he could've been and it's possible that Billy The Kid ended up eccentric. If you survived X, Y, and Z and had to live a different life and couldn't be around your old friends, etc--- that could very well cause a mental problem. Then again, what's more likely? Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you and Jesus Christ Almighty God bless your family 😊 Older people drift in and out of confusion too, my Granny (who only died a couple of years back aged 97) was a bright woman who retained her faculties pretty much until the end. However, in her last year to 18 months she did become 'confused'. Ie my father and I have the same first name and when she was talking about either of us she would often mix us up, even though the story she was telling was true. Easy to see how an outsider could be lead down the wrong path. I'm not defending or condemning Brushy here, just illustrating experience of how confusion can blur even the truth. What is the general concesus on a relative of Brushy's having a few of his possessions tucked away? True? Or more urban myth? There's always the story of the Bean fella seeing a bible with a distict family tree lending weight to Brushy's tale......will it ever surface? Another thought, again apols if covered before, how many people can do the 'big wrists, small hands trick'? Obviously Brushy (and Miller!) could....is it a rare occurence or can loads of people do it (just probably never tried)? For instance, how many of us on here could slip out of a set of handcuffs? Any?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 9:00:10 GMT -5
I don't know about old fashioned handcuffs, but I'm double jointed and can slip out of being tied up because I can make my hands as small as my wrists. I'm sure that there's a sizeable portion of the public who could slip out of ropes and possibly handcuffs.
As for the status of the trunk, I don't know. Or the tapes for that matter. There seems to be an orchestrated effort to keep it a mystery on the part of the pro-Brushy people, because after all Bean claimed that the tapes was in horrible condition, and WC Jameson backed this up--- yet Sonnischen's daughter (or is it Morrison's daughter?) says that they're perfectly fine, and Daniel A. Edwards backs this up.
I tend to believe the latter only because there's been snippets of the taped released on YouTube and they sound clear as a bell, unless someone spent out a great deal of money digitally converting the tapes and removing any and all blips.
The family Bible is also a mystery because it does seem that there was two Bible's, one that Brushy had and one Geneva Pittmon had. The one Brushy had was described as being in poor condition, and Pittmon's was in good or fair condition.
The trunk, last that I knew of, was in the care of a man named Bill Allison who would've been Brushy Bill Roberts stepgrandson. I believe he passed away though, and that the trunk must be in the hands of his children. But that's unknown.
Some months ago this topic came up and Wayne said he knew who was in possession of the trunk, but apparently that person was not obliging or maybe I've misunderstood or imagined that part.
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊
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