Billy the kid death mask

[Deleted]

Sorry if this has been discussed already. Wasn't it common in the 19th century to make a plaster mould of a dead outlaws face. I'm Australian and we have a death mask for our most famous outlaw Ned Kelly. I know there was no photographer in Fort Sumner but surely they could've sorted out some plaster mask before he was buried. Can someone please direct me to the thread where this has been discussed already. I've seen the Ned Kelly death mask in Melbourne and it definitely looks like his face so I'm sure Billy's mask would look more like Billy than an old grainy black and white photo.
Thanks

[chivato88]

I dont think there is one, if there is I never saw it discussed on this board

[Deleted]

Thanks for the reply. So there's a coroner's jury report that was lost twice. No plaster death mask. No photo of body. Was there also no finger print taken after Garret shot Billy to match his finger prints that were taken when he was arrested? Did Governor Mabry take Brushy's finger print to compare it to Billy's? I would believe the coroner's jury report as 100% proof that Billy was killed if there were finger prints and a death mask to go with it. I still don't yet believe 100% with all my heart that Brushy was definitely the kid but I'm getting closer to feeling that way.

[Wayne Land]

I understand the feeling, but just to be clear, the old west didn't have the same need for physical proof that we have today. Consider also there was no such evidence obtained from Garrett's other killings either. Yes, we have numerous photos of dead outlaws from the time but for every one that got photographed in death there were others that did not and Garrett certainly didn't have a habit of doing that.

I think the wrong man was shot that night, whether his name was Billy Barlow or not. And I think Garrett covered it up, but the lack of photos, etc. is probably not the way we prove that.

[kerry]

The head of a person was not only proof of death throughout history but also a! token of further punishment after death....Clay Allison didn't need a reward to decapitate at least one of his victims.....BTK's head would have done the trick for Garrett back at Lincoln for sure!

[MissyS]

I wonder if these death masks are really real of Jesse James, Bill Dalton, Bob Ford, and Butch Cassidy? They are questionable to be the real thing.

www.texasobserver.org/2552-who-were-those-masked-men/

[kerry]

For very good reason -the State owns the body of a condemned man in both life and death....the family were deprived of the body to prevent further unrest and to reinforce the power of the state...so then the US Government not only killed Oama Bin Laden -they took his body and buried it at sea...Pat Garrett should have returned the body to Lincoln -look at all the confusion it has caused to this day!

[Deleted]

The problem with a death mask is it obviously doesn't show what the eyes looked like but it shows the real shape of the face and the Ned Kelly mask shows the detail in his bushy eyebrows. Ned had a bit of a monobrow which you can see in the mask. Since Billy and Brushy both had the same eyebrows I think the death mask would have helped prove or debunk Brushy's story.

[Deleted]

Sept 13, 2020 14:30:00 GMT -5 MissyS said:

I wonder if these death masks are really real of Jesse James, Bill Dalton, Bob Ford, and Butch Cassidy? They are questionable to be the real thing.

www.texasobserver.org/2552-who-were-those-masked-men/

I checked these out thanks. The Ned Kelly mask is the full head including ears and looks much better made than these.

[Deleted]

I think it's incredibly sad that I can't visit a museum and see a death mask of Billy like I can with Ned Kelly. Or see Billy's blood stained clothes with a bullet hole. Australian police kept the blood stained scarf Ned was wearing when captured. They kept many artifacts which are on display in small country museums and the Melbourne library. I believe only Billy's rifle is on display in a museum?. I find it absolutely mind boggling that Pat Garrett didn't keep anything of Billy's from the night he shot him even just for the sake of having a souvenir of the occasion. But they kept the knife that wasn't actually Billy's knife but just something he borrowed and was holding. Was Pat Garret the most unorganized and forgetful cop that ever lived? or did he not keep anything of Billy's because he didn't actually shoot him?

[Wayne Land]

I believe the body was buried right there in Ft. Sumner because Garrett wanted it buried quickly before it could be identified by someone who would know it wasn't really Billy The Kid. Having it properly identified was the last thing he wanted to see happen.

[kerry]

If Garrett killed BTK as he said he did -it was a legal execution no matter the circumstances and the body belonged to the Legal System that condemned it to death. If it wasn't BTK -it was an illegal killing of an innocent man and the body could be claimed by his family or friends (as it indeed was)
Murder by stealth of an defenceless person entitled to the full protection of the Law -is assasination ..this is how Pat Garrett died -

[Deleted]

Thanks everybody for your thoughts. I love this forum. I'm sorry to use comparisons of Billy to Ned Kelly but my love of Billy came not from an interest in the American old west or Young Guns 2 but from when I started to compare Billy's character with Ned's. I still like Ned but I'm team Billy all the way. If Brushy wasn't Billy then I'm ok with that. I just struggle to deal with the fact that almost everything about Billy is alleged or maybe happened or apparently just opinion. The guy is an immortal icon but the more I try to learn about him the more comfused I become. The question of what really happened to him is of course a very big question. BUT It deserves a very big answer.

[tboor74]

Miller has always intruiged me. He didn't actually go around saying he was Billy did he (think it was more from his relatives after his death) but was obviously 'someone'? The way he suddenly appeared days later, with the chest wound certainly inspires investigation.



I also wonder about the arrest warrants / wanted posters AFTER Billy was supposedly killed. Are there sources for them? I've read and heard reference a few times but never actually found info myself.

[tboor74]

Ah, thanks very much. It does seem odd that there would be warrants issued IF Billy had really been killed. Old Wild West or not, dead men tend not to cause too much aggro.