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Post by Wayne Land on May 9, 2013 9:05:42 GMT -5
I just believe if Billy did survive after 1881 he would have still had the same overall body stature and even in advanced age his face would have similar dimensions, etc. Therefore, I've ruled out John Miller being Billy. I have some photo comparisons that make that pretty obvious.
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Post by bensmith20 on May 9, 2013 9:47:27 GMT -5
Hi Wayne, could you upload the comparisons please? it would be interesting to see. Also, do you know where I might look for info regarding the sonar thing on the cemetery?
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Post by bensmith20 on May 9, 2013 9:58:28 GMT -5
By the way, thought you guys might appreciate this, it's a drawing I did. I sent it to the BTK museum in Fort Sumner, the owners told me they'd exhibit it for me there so maybe you might see it if you're ever there.
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Post by nmjames on May 9, 2013 17:52:12 GMT -5
Very nice drawing Ben,
Did you talk to Don? I haven't been up to visit them in over a year. I need to get back up that way. Have you ever been to Billy's grave in Fort Sumner? I don't know much about the sonar but I remember a man on one of the site stating that he had done that at night but with all the bar's and cement, I don't know how he could have done it. I don't remember what site that was on but Wayne may remember.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 9, 2013 19:06:03 GMT -5
The alleged sonar test was claimed to have been performed by a member of Nick McCarty's message board which is no longer active. Unfortunately I don't even remember the fella's screen name, but it seemed to be honest about what he was claiming.
I'll post my Miller/Billy facial comparison but I have to find it first. If I can't find the original image I'll do it over again. Might need a day or two.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 9, 2013 20:00:38 GMT -5
The red tracing lines are the exact shape of Billy's face in the famous tintype photo. The upper left image is Brushy at age 27. The other two are John Miller. In both the Miller photos it is a bit difficult to see exactly where his pupils are so as to make sure the photos are scaled exactly the same. That fact probably accounts for the one showing his nose shorter than Billy's and the other showing it longer. But try as I did, I could not make either photo match the overall dimensions of Billy's face as well as Brushy's does. Miller's jaw is more squared and wider, his nose is more narrow, his chin is longer, etc. If you adjust the scaling so the overall height of the face matches, then the eyes don't even come close to being in the same place. Notice in the upper right photo how low the eyebrows are to the eyes compared to Brushy's and Billy's. I also did a full body comparison and if you scale again according to the distance between the pupils, Miller has a much longer torso, and longer arms than Billy.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 9, 2013 20:06:59 GMT -5
Also notice the cheeks. Miller's cheeks are prominent enough to create lines on each side of his nose and mouth. Brushy's cheeks are shallow like Billy's.
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Post by nmjames on May 10, 2013 0:17:12 GMT -5
Ben,
What can you tell me about Isadora, John Miller's wife? It is said that she claimed she lived at Fort Sumner when her husband was allegedly killed by Garrett.
Thanks, nmjames
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Post by bensmith20 on May 10, 2013 5:32:51 GMT -5
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for uploading that, it is interesting to look at and I can see where you're coming from in your beliefs. One thing i've noticed is i've never seen a good cleaned up version of the tintype, im pretty handy with photoshop so maybe I can work on that and get it uploaded. I suppose 1 way to find out if Brushy was telling the truth was if his remains could be exhumed and analysed to see whether he was in his 70's or 90's when he died, im pretty sure they have the tech to do that now.
nmjames, Thanks for your comments about the picture, I think it was Tim and Lula Sweet I spoke with at the museam via emails. Im from the UK (unfortunately) so i've never been lucky enough to visit any of the sites but it's up there on my to do list. As for Isadora Miller, there is alot of info about her in the two books I mentioned above. Some believe she was actualy Charlie Bowdrie's wife Manuela but I also read that there are records of her re-marrying elsewhere after Charlie's death. She apparrently resided in Fort Sumner and was of Mexican descent and apparently firmly believed that her husband was Billy. One of the claims is that her husband was shot and wounded a couple of weeks before the supposed killing of Billy and that she was nursing him back to health in Fort Sumner and hid him between 2 straw mattresses when authorities came looking and that a Mexican sheep herder was passed off as Billy. They then apparrently left Fort Sumner and only travelled at night away from the main roads and slept in the day. They also apparrently hid in the same caves Billy had hid in previously. They say Miller had a trunk which had undeniable proof that he was Billy, but the trunk (if there was one) has been lost to history. Like I said before, the books mentioned above are well worth a read. It's just a shame the investigation seems to have gone quiet and that nothing has been made official. Have either of you had any luck contacting Steve Sederwall?
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Post by nmjames on May 10, 2013 6:52:40 GMT -5
Thanks Ben,
I had read before that Isadora was thought to have been Manuela Bowdre but don't remember where I had read it. Manuela was Maria "Manuela" Herrera born in 1866 and died in 1939. Her father was Fernando Herrera born in 1836 and died in 1915. Fernando was in the Lincoln Co. War and shot Charlie Crawford in what is called the long shot. He had another daughter Antonia Herrera that married Josiah "Doc" Scurlock. One more daughter was married to a William Gill that was also in Lincoln at the time of the War but I don't think he fought in it. I know Manuela's great grandaughter and visit with her often. I have a picture of Manuela in her older age.
I will find the books you mentioned and read up more of Mr. Miller. Have you read the West of Billy The Kid by Frederick Nolan? I have met Mr. Nolan a few times and we email often.
I have not tried to make contact with Steve, I was going to let Wayne try first but I will email him today.
Thanks, nmjames
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Post by nmjames on May 10, 2013 6:56:51 GMT -5
Ben,
If you would give me your email address, I have 100s of pictures of the area and some information I can share with you, if you would like and will be glad to do so.
James
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Post by bensmith20 on May 10, 2013 7:32:41 GMT -5
Hi James, yes that would be great thanks, my email is: ben.smith.32@hotmail.co.uk I haven't read that one yet but i've been told its the most historicaly accurate and un-biased one out there so it's on my shopping list. I look forward to your email.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 10, 2013 9:24:00 GMT -5
Miller simply can not be Billy The Kid. It amazes me to have read comments in the past suggesting that Brushy didn't look anything like Billy and that John Miller did. Miller's facial dimensions are just too different. Brushy's photos may not immediately shout "I'm Billy" as far as the "recognition factor" is concerned but at least the dimensions match up. Miller isn't even close. Well, let me correct myself. There is one way Miller could be Billy and only one. That would be if the famous tintype that sold for 2 million dollars is actually "not" Billy. I am "totally" convinced that the fellow in the Billy tintype and John Miller are definitely two different people. Again, look at the shape of the cheeks and cheek bones, Miller's deep set eyes (distance from pupils to eyebrows) and the shape, length and width of the jaw line. Here's my effort at cleaning up the tintype. Done in "Aperture" over several hours with extreme care not to alter anything that would change the "recognition factor".
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Post by bensmith20 on May 10, 2013 9:56:52 GMT -5
I do understand and respect your beliefs Wayne and it will no doubt be something people will always debate over. I do think Brushy resembles the tintype more so than Miller does and like I said before I can't make my mind up on what to believe. I think 1 thing to be considered in any case is certain features change through age such as ears and nose can grow, lips can shrink, jawline can become squarer, gums can recede causing physical changes to the mouth. This could go both ways in supporting or disproving any claimant. Good work on the photo, i'll try have a go myself over the weekend if I get time and post the results. What are your thoughts on the attached photo Wayne? The link from where I found it is historicalwesternphotos.com/billy_the_kid_and_friends
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Post by Wayne Land on May 10, 2013 10:05:34 GMT -5
That's a very interesting photo. I'm not sure I've ever seen it before. Without doing any tracing overlays and such, my immediate impression is that it could be Billy in the center. The body stature is correct, the facial shape is correct, the eyebrows are correct, the nose looks similar. A couple things look different on first impression. The mouth appears wider than Billy's and it looks like this fellow might have a little beard growing in the center of his chin, right below the lower lip. Or that could just be a shadow. I don't think Billy would have had that if the picture was taken prior to 1881. I'll definitely take a closer look at the photo. In fact, I'd like compare the vest to the one Billy was wearing in the tintype.
Thanks for sharing that.
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