Josephine Sanchez

[clydec]

Jul 3, 2020 21:24:07 GMT -5 Elwood said:

Jul 3, 2020 20:02:42 GMT -5 Wayne Land said:

This is all great information and I believe it lends much credibility to the story attested to by Josephine Sanches. I've contacted a member of ancestry.com who has Angelita in her family tree. Hopefully she has some information about all this as well.

Angelita Sedillo Gutierrez 1861-1942


Angelita Gutierrez

BIRTH 1861

DEATH 27 Jun 1942 (aged 80–81)

BURIAL

South Park Cemetery

Roswell, Chaves County, New Mexico
PLOT 11A-92-3 - UNMARKED GRAVE




Francisco Gutierrez 1847-1935


Francisco “Francis” Gutierrez

BIRTH 1847

DEATH 26 Jan 1935 (aged 87–88)

BURIAL

South Park Cemetery

Roswell, Chaves County, New Mexico
PLOT 11A-92-1

So that makes her much closer in age to Billy than was previously recorded.

[Wayne Land]

Thanks so much for sharing that. For me, the story about Josephine Sanchez is the closest thing to proof that Brushy was really BTK. He knew lots of things you wouldn't think Oliver P. Roberts would have known. Lot's of things that indicate he really was Billy, but that story as told by Josephine is the most unexplainable of all. If it really happened the way she said, then Brushy Bill Roberts really was BTK. In my opinion.

[clydec]

Wayne, also Martile Able. She was actually recommended to Morrison by Billy the kid historians who had brought other Billy the kid claimants to her to verify or refute because they knew that she had known the kid well back in the day. She had refuted Walk along Smith as Billy before Brushy came to see her. She recognized Brushy as soon as she saw him and he knew her on sight as well. All 3 of the people who identified Brushy, Severo Gallegos, Jose Montoya, Martile Ables were recommended to Morrison by those same Billy the kid historians because they knew that they could identify or refute Billy the kid claimants. So, when they all met Brushy and all identified him as being Billy the kid, these same historians turned on these eyewitnesses calling them liars and not knowing what they were talking about. As long as you went along with them you were ok, but as soon as you went against what they believed you are a liar and a crazy. This is what they had to deal with back then and even still to this day.

[Wayne Land]

Clyde, that is all correct but I'm sure you've read the various attempts to disqualify those witnesses, even including Martile. I don't agree with most of those attempts to negate those eyewitness identifications, but nontheless, they persist and there is room for doubt. Where Josephine is concerned, they've tried to suggest the meeting between her and Brushy never really happened. They've tried to suggest the whole episode was just a made up story by Jim Tully, etc. But now we know that Josephine, in fact, did sign an affidavit attesting to the meeting and the conversation just as Tully described it to Tunstall. The naysayers will probably just insist she lied on the affidavit, but minus any real evidence of that, the fair minded amongst us have to accept that what was attested to in an affidavit is fact. And that leaves no room for doubt. If we were to obtain DNA that proved Brushy was not the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born in 1879, those same naysayers would still not accept that he even "might have been" the real BTK. If we obtained DNA from Catherine Antrim's grave and from Brushy's and they matched, they'd just say it was bogus for some reason. So I'm not expecting any major announcement that Brushy's claim has been proven true because of what Josephine said. But for me, it is proof enough.

[red]

For Rufus. There was an individual on a Facebook page involving this subject who claimed that Brushy was a maternal cousin to BTK.

[Texas Truth Teller]

Aug 31, 2020 12:28:32 GMT -5 red said:

For Rufus. There was an individual on a Facebook page involving this subject who claimed that Brushy was a maternal cousin to BTK.

Interesting.  Claims are cheap.  Proof is difficult, and that's probably impossible to prove.  No siblings of Catherine McCarty have been identified.  No one named McCarty is in the two generations prior to Oliver P Roberts.  All records of, and historical references to, Brushy Bill Roberts aka William Henry Roberts are in invisible ink.

[Wayne Land]

Rufus,

I admire the effort you've made to figure it all out and you may be onto the truth at least partially. I respect that. But I have to chime in here and just say, Brushy Bill "looked like" BTK more than Henry Oliver Roberts did. He was a better facial match. There are some specific areas of Henry's facial dimensions that would be very questionable as compared to BTK. And if the face don't match, it ain't him.

[Wayne Land]

Henry Oliver Roberts did not resemble the tintype enough to have been that man. There is almost no doubt that the tintype is a photo of Billy The Kid. Henry Oliver Roberts was "not" Billy The Kid. I can say that definitely. I can't comment on all your other assertions because I really can't follow the logic. You even suggest that Antrim might have been Billy's real father. Are you not aware that by the time Antrim and Catherine were married, the boys were 10 to 12 years old? You're reaching way too much my friend.

[Wayne Land]

And another thought. What about the subject this thread was suppose to be about? Josephine Sanchez. I still haven't heard any real challenge to her testimony that Brushy was the real BTK. It doesn't seem the non-believers have an answer to her.

[Wayne Land]

I suspect the affidavit was secured by Tunstill after he interviewed Jim Tully who told him about Sanchez. There is no reason why he shouldn't want an affidavit from her. Just the same as Morrison sought affidavits from others who identified Brushy. I don't know what the penalty would be for lying on an affidavit or putting your name to a sworn statement that isn't true. But I'm pretty sure that is illegal. As for the coincidence of her being a neighbor of Severo Gallegos, that shouldn't be surprising. People who know each other often live close by. Is it suspicious that my niece lives next door to her mother?

Thanks for sharing your opinion but I don't see where you've pointed out any reason to doubt the validity of the affidavit.

[RonBk]

Here is a photo of Jose Miguel Sedillo. Its not hard to imagine this guy being friends with Billy the kid, and also that he did not like it when his daughter started dating BTK, since he was an outlaw. The Josephine Sanchez affidavit seems to have strong credibility and should be regarded as hard evidence until proven otherwise. Josephines story is backed up by the historical facts and its furthermore not very likely she made it all up since she signed an affidavit before a judge. First of all, why would she do that? There is just no logical reason for it. Secondly, most people would think twice before telling a lie to a judge unless they had a very good reason to do so. I dont know what you get for perjury in a case like that, but it doesnt really matter. What matters is that very few people would do it, its as simple as that.

[RonBk]

I found the following story on ancestry about Angelita and Billy, provided by Abel John Levario Jr:

Many years ago my Great Aunty wrote 2 books...One about the Brady family (my family too!) and one about the Sedillos family. I have both books!
 
One night at a dance at the "Zacatera", (haybarn) Which was used as a dance hall at the San Patricio, Angelita sedillos met Billy. She was the oldest daughter of Don Jose mIguel Sedillo. Her older brother was Pablo. Her younger brothers were Martin, Rafael, Sisto, Daniel, and Rufino. Her mother Maria Ignes, had died giving birth to Rufino. Don Jose hired a  nurse named Leonor from Mesilla to breastfeed the baby, but Angelita shouldered the responsibilities of running the home. Don Jose later married a women named Ramona who presented him with a baby girl. When Ramona died Angelita inherited the added burden of raising her little half-sister, Manuelita. 

 Credit . My many thanks go out to:

Sandra Miller

[RonBk]

And here is a photo of Angelita with her brother Don Sixto, sitting beside a framed photo of their father.

[clydec]

Dec 10, 2020 3:36:49 GMT -5 RonBk said:

View Attachment
And here is a photo of Angelita with her brother Don Sixto, sitting beside a framed photo of their father.

That is a great photo, do you mind if I share it on my facebook group?

[Kristen Crowder]

Hello Everyone! My great great Grandmother is
Angelita Sedillo Gutierrez. Its true her father was very upset about what was going on between Billy and
Angelita and she was married off to Benito Trujillo. After Benito Trujillo died, Angelita later married Francisco Gutierrez. My Great great grandfather.Their son Ramon Gutierrez is my grandmas father.