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Post by MissyS on May 11, 2020 0:09:29 GMT -5
Ok I’m perplexed because I stumbled onto something about Billy’s past that I don’t know if it’s been discussed before?, and I don’t know how true it is? I thought it would be a significant information if proven true because it could add some missing pieces in Billy’s life so here it goes. I was reading parts of an online book titled “ Alias Billy the Kid, man behind the legend” by Donald Cline, there’s a story or theory that Billy and also Joe was sent out of the territory back to New York by his Stepfather Antrim, at age 12 he was supposedly associated with the “Children’s Aid Society” and left there or bound out to a farmer out west at 13, according to a NY State law officer named Dwyer this was 1873, then he returned to the fourth ward and attended a Vanderwater School and he became somewhat of a tinsmith, then shockingly on Saturday Sept. 9,1876 Billy and possibly Joe Antrim and a couple girls and another young man named Moore, were hanging around out front of a store and words or a comment was made to anger one or the other?, it started out a fist fight but got worse with Billy using a knife, the details are in the book and clipping I found, this Billy had fled the scene and was trailed and the knife found on the street a Captain Alexander Williams was assigned to the case, more names of officers mentioned that involved that night and the book mentioned Billy may have went to Brooklyn possibly to his Fathers residence? The book says his fathers name was Edward? and his whereabouts were lost from there, and Officer Dwyer claimed he was convinced it was the same young man as Billy the Kid back then, Dwyer he also mentioned Billy possibly returning to Ireland for a brief time. According to the book It mentioned there was two or three news clippings about the crime that occurred in New York one supposedly headlined “Pearl Street Murder” and “Murder on Vanderwater Street” I did find a clipping of Dwyer commenting he believes it’s the same Billy he knew in New York. So I’m curious if this could really be the same Billy? www.newspapers.com/clip/27577546/the-las-vegas-gazette/
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Post by MissyS on May 11, 2020 0:20:29 GMT -5
Also the Clipping said Billy’s real first name was Michael, could he have changed it to Henry later??
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Post by chivato88 on May 11, 2020 7:01:10 GMT -5
Funny you bring this up MissyS cause I started a book yesterday "Tall tales & half truths of Pat Garrett" by John Lemay and it mentions briefly p.21 that Billy stabbing a boyhood friend in the streets of New York.
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Post by MissyS on May 11, 2020 17:52:55 GMT -5
chivatto88, That’s quite interesting you found mention of the incident in another book, Officer Dwyer mentions in the news clipping that after Billy’s father died there were two daughters that survived, so this may be a different Billy with that said, it seems a lot of coincidence of the two’s descriptions however that Officer Dwyer mentioned, I can’t seem to find much more about it. 🤔
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Post by leeb on May 12, 2020 13:22:45 GMT -5
I think you'll find that Donald cline is pure fiction.
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Post by Elwood on May 13, 2020 9:57:21 GMT -5
I think you'll find that Donald cline is pure fiction. 22 July 1881 Kingston Daily Freeman Kingston, New York Billy the Kid Said to be born in New York City Recollections of Michael McCarthy and of the murder he committed at Hague and Pearl Streets - Afterwards visits Rondout There is a general belief in the Fourth Ward that, notwithstanding statements to the contrary,"Billy the Kid", who on Saturday last was shot dead by Sheriff Garrett at Fort Sumner, New Mexico, was born and brought up in that Ward. The dispatch announcing his death reported that his real name was McCarthy, and that he was a New Yorker by birth. The Fourth Warder's name was McCarthy. He is described as answering in personal appearance to the description of the Kid, and it is said that he fled to the West in 1876 after committing murder in this city. "I'm convinced that Billy the Kid and McCarthy are one and the same person", said Policeman Thomas Dwyer of the Oak Street station last evening. "McCarthy was of the same height as the Kid, had hair and eyes of the same color, and the same projecting teeth. I remember McCarthy well, and the murder he committed was the most brutal that ever came under my notice. It happened on the night of September 9, 1876. He had been on bad terms with Tom Moore, a brush maker, living at No. 9 Vandewater Street. Moore worked in a factory in Fulton Street, and was the only support of his mother. He was not twenty years old, and was a fine, broad-shouldered fellow. On the night of the 9th he went to the grocery store of Matthew Dwyer at the corner of Pearl and Hague streets. There McCarthy met him, and they quarreled. McCarthy ran into the grocery store, and picking up a beer glass with one hand and a large knife, such as is used to slice ham with, in the other, came out. He threw the glass at Moore, who dodged it, and attempted to clinch with him. McCarthy met him with the knife, sending it through Moore's chin, cutting into his throat, and burying the blade ten inches deep in his breast. One of Moore's thumbs was cut off as he had held up his hand to ward off the blow. McCarthy ran down Hague Street and through a passage to 84 Frankford Street, where he threw away the knife. Moore staggered to the front of 357 Pearl Street, and fell dead into the arms of a friend. McCarthy was traced to Brooklyn, where he was lost sight of. His father kept a fruit stand at the corner of Nassau and John Streets, and was thought to have money. Shortly after his son's disappearance, he left the city and was gone for several months. It was said at the time that he had taken McCarthy to Ireland. When he returned, I knew that his son came with him, and I afterward learned that the son went West. In 1878 the old man died, and "Dad" McCarthy, his other son, and Mrs. McCarthy died a few months later. There are two girls of the family still living. McCarthy was bad from a child, and had had some Western experience before he fled West in 1876. When thirteen or fourteen years old he was sent to the House of Refuge, and through the Children's Aid Society, I think it was, was bound out to a Western farmer. He stayed a year or so, and then escaped and came back to this city. He was born in Vandewater Street, and went to the Vandewater Street School. His given name was Michael, but I have heard that he changed it after the murder. He was a little past seventeen when he killed Moore, and looked younger. His teeth were strong and white, but the two front upper teeth were longer than the rest and projected. He was then about five feet five inches tall, but many not have got his growth. He had blue eyes and brown hair. His face was somewhat tanned. He learned to ride, I know, while on the farm out West. "As soon as I read the account of Billy the Kid's death, and saw that his real name was McCarthy", said the man into whose arms Moore had fallen after being stabbed", it occurred to me at once that he was Moore's murderer. The description tallied, and McCarthy was just the man to turn out a desperado". A Sun reporter talked last night with twenty Fourth Warders, all of whom had known McCarthy. They were all of the opinion that he and "Billy the Kid" were identical. There is one way to make sure of it, said a young man employed in a grocery shop in Pearl Street, near Hague. McCarthy, when ten years old, was badly burned with acid, and was treated at the Chambers Street Hospital; but I think he must have a scar on the upper part of one of his legs and on his body". - New York Sun. "Billy the Kid", it is pretty well known among some of the bruisers of this city, was here after he committed the above murder in New York City. "He esconced himself on a Pennsylvania Coal Company's boat at Brooklyn on that night - the captain being one of his friends - and was brought to this city and kept hidden for a week", said one of the "bunch of fire" fraternity down on the dock this morning. "The captain, however, didn't know that Billy, then known as McCarthy, had committed a murder, but he knew he was in trouble, and considered it his duty to help him out of it. One dark night after he had been hiden away in the bow of this boat for about a week", continued the man, "he was taken to Rhinecliff in a small boat and walked up the track a short distance and the next morning jumped on a passing train and nothing more of him was heard around here until about a year had passed, when I received a lette from him". The letter was here produced, and it was written in a plain though anything but neat hand, and the paper was musty and begrimed with age. In it was said nothing of great importance, and for fear that he might be brought into trouble by it, the man possessing it, tore it up and threw it to the winds.
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Post by Elwood on May 13, 2020 10:16:51 GMT -5
I think you'll find that Donald cline is pure fiction. 22 July 1881 Kingston Daily Freeman Kingston, New York Billy the Kid Said to be born in New York City Recollections of Michael McCarthy and of the murder he committed at Hague and Pearl Streets - Afterwards visits Rondout There is a general belief in the Fourth Ward that, notwithstanding statements to the contrary,"Billy the Kid", who on Saturday last was shot dead by Sheriff Garrett at Fort Sumner, New Mexico, was born and brought up in that Ward. The dispatch announcing his death reported that his real name was McCarthy, and that he was a New Yorker by birth. The Fourth Warder's name was McCarthy. He is described as answering in personal appearance to the description of the Kid, and it is said that he fled to the West in 1876 after committing murder in this city. "I'm convinced that Billy the Kid and McCarthy are one and the same person", said Policeman Thomas Dwyer of the Oak Street station last evening. "McCarthy was of the same height as the Kid, had hair and eyes of the same color, and the same projecting teeth. I remember McCarthy well, and the murder he committed was the most brutal that ever came under my notice. It happened on the night of September 9, 1876. He had been on bad terms with Tom Moore, a brush maker, living at No. 9 Vandewater Street. Moore worked in a factory in Fulton Street, and was the only support of his mother. He was not twenty years old, and was a fine, broad-shouldered fellow. On the night of the 9th he went to the grocery store of Matthew Dwyer at the corner of Pearl and Hague streets. There McCarthy met him, and they quarreled. McCarthy ran into the grocery store, and picking up a beer glass with one hand and a large knife, such as is used to slice ham with, in the other, came out. He threw the glass at Moore, who dodged it, and attempted to clinch with him. McCarthy met him with the knife, sending it through Moore's chin, cutting into his throat, and burying the blade ten inches deep in his breast. One of Moore's thumbs was cut off as he had held up his hand to ward off the blow. McCarthy ran down Hague Street and through a passage to 84 Frankford Street, where he threw away the knife. Moore staggered to the front of 357 Pearl Street, and fell dead into the arms of a friend. McCarthy was traced to Brooklyn, where he was lost sight of. His father kept a fruit stand at the corner of Nassau and John Streets, and was thought to have money. Shortly after his son's disappearance, he left the city and was gone for several months. It was said at the time that he had taken McCarthy to Ireland. When he returned, I knew that his son came with him, and I afterward learned that the son went West. In 1878 the old man died, and "Dad" McCarthy, his other son, and Mrs. McCarthy died a few months later. There are two girls of the family still living. McCarthy was bad from a child, and had had some Western experience before he fled West in 1876. When thirteen or fourteen years old he was sent to the House of Refuge, and through the Children's Aid Society, I think it was, was bound out to a Western farmer. He stayed a year or so, and then escaped and came back to this city. He was born in Vandewater Street, and went to the Vandewater Street School. His given name was Michael, but I have heard that he changed it after the murder. He was a little past seventeen when he killed Moore, and looked younger. His teeth were strong and white, but the two front upper teeth were longer than the rest and projected. He was then about five feet five inches tall, but many not have got his growth. He had blue eyes and brown hair. His face was somewhat tanned. He learned to ride, I know, while on the farm out West. "As soon as I read the account of Billy the Kid's death, and saw that his real name was McCarthy", said the man into whose arms Moore had fallen after being stabbed", it occurred to me at once that he was Moore's murderer. The description tallied, and McCarthy was just the man to turn out a desperado". A Sun reporter talked last night with twenty Fourth Warders, all of whom had known McCarthy. They were all of the opinion that he and "Billy the Kid" were identical. There is one way to make sure of it, said a young man employed in a grocery shop in Pearl Street, near Hague. McCarthy, when ten years old, was badly burned with acid, and was treated at the Chambers Street Hospital; but I think he must have a scar on the upper part of one of his legs and on his body". - New York Sun. "Billy the Kid", it is pretty well known among some of the bruisers of this city, was here after he committed the above murder in New York City. "He esconced himself on a Pennsylvania Coal Company's boat at Brooklyn on that night - the captain being one of his friends - and was brought to this city and kept hidden for a week", said one of the "bunch of fire" fraternity down on the dock this morning. "The captain, however, didn't know that Billy, then known as McCarthy, had committed a murder, but he knew he was in trouble, and considered it his duty to help him out of it. One dark night after he had been hiden away in the bow of this boat for about a week", continued the man, "he was taken to Rhinecliff in a small boat and walked up the track a short distance and the next morning jumped on a passing train and nothing more of him was heard around here until about a year had passed, when I received a lette from him". The letter was here produced, and it was written in a plain though anything but neat hand, and the paper was musty and begrimed with age. In it was said nothing of great importance, and for fear that he might be brought into trouble by it, the man possessing it, tore it up and threw it to the winds.
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Post by leeb on May 13, 2020 12:19:49 GMT -5
Fiction
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Post by MissyS on May 13, 2020 12:30:20 GMT -5
In the West of Billy the Kid book it stated that Frank Coe recollected that Billy had gotten his schooling in New York and must have been about 13 when he left, this information could coincide with the story of Billy attending the Vanderwater School?, however Frank Coe could have just assumed Billy got schooled in New York because he believed he was from there? Officer Dwyer stated Billy was sent to stay with a farmer at age 13, and Frank Coe mentioned Billy being 13 when he left New York, also can coincide?
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Post by Elwood on May 13, 2020 13:23:07 GMT -5
In the West of Billy the Kid book it stated that Frank Coe recollected that Billy had gotten his schooling in New York and must have been about 13 when he left, this information could coincide with the story of Billy attending the Vanderwater School?, however Frank Coe could have just assumed Billy got schooled in New York because he believed he was from there? Officer Dwyer stated Billy was sent to stay with a farmer at age 13, and Frank Coe mentioned Billy being 13 when he left New York, also can coincide? Officer Dwyer of New York City didn't seem to realize that "Michael McCarthy", the young man who stabbed Tom Moore in the Summer of 1876, didn't know that McCarthy was captured about a year later in July 1877. Yet, FOUR YEARS LATER, Dwyer stated a lot of info in the newspapers, about a WEEK after Billy the Kid was supposedly killed by Pat Garrett. 16 July 1877 The Evening Telegram New York, NY Capture of a Murderer "Mick" McCarthy, of the Fourth Ward, Arrested This Morning for the Murder of Moore, the Printer. This morning, Michael McCarthy, better known as "Mick", of the Fourth ward of this city, was taken to Police Headquarters, charged with murder. Last night he was arrested by some of Captain Jeremiah Petty's officers in South Brooklyn and taken to the Oak Street police station to answer a charge of murdering John [should be Tom] Moore, a young printer, at the corner of Hague and Pearl streets last summer. McCarthy was a young rowdy and a member of the Hague Base Ball Club. His parents reside in Vandewater Street. His father is a laborer. The prisoner is about eighteen years old. The deceased was nineteen, and lived in an adjoining house in Vandewater street. He worked as a printer and supported his parents. McCarty, after a quarrel with Moore, ran for a carving knife in a grocery store, and having stolen it, stabbed Moore to the heart. He then ran away. The knife was found in a building where he had secreted himself.
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Post by MissyS on May 13, 2020 16:42:26 GMT -5
Thanks Elwood for finding the information, 😉 it looks like Officer Dwyer was wrong in accusing Billy the Kid with that killing, it’s strange the difference in the stories that Moore was said to have been a brush maker and later was said to have been a printer, and a few other slight variations in the crime, but he may not have handled the case directly to know all the specifics?
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Post by Elwood on May 13, 2020 20:32:59 GMT -5
Thanks Elwood for finding the information, 😉 it looks like Officer Dwyer was wrong in accusing Billy the Kid with that killing, it’s strange the difference in the stories that Moore was said to have been a brush maker and later was said to have been a printer, and a few other slight variations in the crime, but he may not have handled the case directly to know all the specifics? I wonder how officer Dwyer got "20 Fourth Warders" to go along with his story about Micheal "Mick" McCarthy being Billy the Kid, within a week after Billy was supposedly "killed" by Garrett in July 1881. It was Five Years from summer 1876 to July 1881, when those 20 Fourth Warders supposedly remembered McCarthy like it was just recently. Also, the July 1877 newspaper article stated that McCarthy's parents resided in the neighborhood. That would have eliminated Catherine McCarty Antrim from this theory, as she died in 1874. Some seem to suggest that unwed Catherine McCarty and Edward McCarty were the parents of an illegitimate male child who became Billy the Kid, and that he was born on 20 November 1859; not 23 November 1859, like many early writers had indicated. Do a search for that info in the New York City birth records, and you will find that particular Edward and Catherine McCarty couple actually had their child on 20 November 1857, TWO YEARS earlier. Perhaps someone had interpreted a 7 as a 9?
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Post by mckinley412 on May 14, 2020 0:18:14 GMT -5
I read that Billy LeRoy was the NY Billy and that the 1916 movie was about him. and .. even when I started to doing research it became immediately clear that Catherine's husband name was Michael so it is mind blowing to see people say his name was Patrick or Edward... it's basically a fact his name was Michael. and nobody knows about it, I think you can find it in Trailing Billy the Kid by Rasche.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 14, 2020 23:08:53 GMT -5
I read that Billy LeRoy was the NY Billy and that the 1916 movie was about him. and .. even when I started to doing research it became immediately clear that Catherine's husband name was Michael so it is mind blowing to see people say his name was Patrick or Edward... it's basically a fact his name was Michael. and nobody knows about it, I think you can find it in Trailing Billy the Kid by Rasche. mckinley412, Researchers have struggled for years to conclusively identify the first husband of Catherine McCarty. Assumptions have been made, based on circumstantial evidence, but no primary record has been found. As you pointed out, various names have been suggested for McCarty's first name.The marriage record of William Antrim and Catherine Mcarty, witnesses Henry McCarty and Joseph McCarty, is credible evidence of her second marriage.
Did Rasche provide a source that identified McCarty's first name as Michael?
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Post by mckinley412 on May 14, 2020 23:42:50 GMT -5
I don't remember. But I think it came from Catherine or Antrim and they said his name was Michael. The book is Trailing Billy the Kid
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