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Post by Sam Fraser on Feb 4, 2020 22:59:02 GMT -5
When l was younger, I accepted Brushy Bill as Billy 100%. Now that I've gotten older, I'm leaning more towards 70/30 that he wasn't, I believe he was someone else from the Lincoln County War, possibly Marion Turner (a man who fought on the Murphy/Dolan side of the war, and disappeared from history shortly after the war ended).
It's amazing how people just vanished from history back then. Dirty Steve Stephens, another Regulator, simply vanished after the war as well.
Big Jim French and John Middleton, both Regulators, have varying degrees of what happened to them after the war.
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Post by mckinley412 on Feb 5, 2020 11:11:04 GMT -5
Brushy would not have known to be 5'8. He wouldn't have known that he had to have large wrists and small hands....ok maybe he knew that but he would not have known Billy had a wide "sweeping" jaw. And he knew you would never find a connection to the name "bonney". and he knew you could never prove Catherine was his mother.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 5, 2020 23:00:23 GMT -5
Brushy would not have known to be 5'8. He wouldn't have known that he had to have large wrists and small hands....ok maybe he knew that but he would not have known Billy had a wide "sweeping" jaw. And he knew you would never find a connection to the name "bonney". and he knew you could never prove Catherine was his mother. And he knew you could never prove Mary Adeline Dunn was his mother, or that J H Roberts was his father, or that Ollie was his cousin, or that James Roberts was his half-brother, for they did not exist. |
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Post by mckinley412 on Mar 10, 2020 19:29:27 GMT -5
TTT, I see what you did there but that would be like saying that neither story can be proven because neither are true and I think one version will proven to be correct if given enough time and money and it will be Brushy's story that is true but it is possible that one story is true and one is false and neither will be proven. I will do more searches with the James half brother because I never do and honestly I forget where that came from, maybe I forgot about it because there is no original source but it just kind of got put into the story by someone with no evidence to back it up and I try not to use those details when looking for real things. In fact I have looked up author sources when sources were given and a few times I found out they do not exist except in the author's imagination. It's tricky stuff.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 11, 2020 11:31:19 GMT -5
TTT, I see what you did there but that would be like saying that neither story can be proven because neither are true and I think one version will proven to be correct if given enough time and money and it will be Brushy's story that is true but it is possible that one story is true and one is false and neither will be proven. I will do more searches with the James half brother because I never do and honestly I forget where that came from, maybe I forgot about it because there is no original source but it just kind of got put into the story by someone with no evidence to back it up and I try not to use those details when looking for real things. In fact I have looked up author sources when sources were given and a few times I found out they do not exist except in the author's imagination. It's tricky stuff. mckinley412, there are a few real documented sources about the life of BtK that provide indisputable facts. He was tried and convicted of murder by the New Mexico Territorial justice system; he and Joseph McCarty were two of the witnesses at the marriage of Catherine McCarty and William Antrim in Santa Fe; William Antrim stated in his pension application that his wife was Catherine McCarty, whose first husband died in New York City, and that she had 2 boys; a coroners jury was convened by Alejandro Segura in July 1881 and concluded the death of BtK was justifiable homicide.
Page 33 of "Alias Billy the Kid" describes the remarriage of "Wild Henry' Roberts, and the birth of the half-brother, James Roberts, some 6 years younger than Brushy Bill.
Comparison of Families Actual Family
Oliver P Roberts
father Henry Oliver Robert, 1st wife Caroline DUNN mother Sarah ELIZABETH FERGUSON
half-sister Martha Roberts Heath
Imaginary Family
Brushy Bill Roberts father James "Wild Henry" Roberts
1st wife and mother of Brushy Bill, Mary Adeline DUNN 2nd wife ELIZABETH FERGUSON
cousin Martha Roberts Heath
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Post by mckinley412 on Mar 12, 2020 1:56:34 GMT -5
Ok. but I have found records of James M. Roberts married to a Sarah E. who had a son William H. and I think she was listed as Elizabeth once. And the husband transferred from Kentucky. But they are in Texas and after his death she moved to New Mexico. Maybe we can we put our brains together. There are possibilities. One record I have shows her listed as Elizabeth Roberts age 56 with a son named James at 18 yrs old. But she is the same Sarah Elizabeth Roberts married to the James Roberts in case you wondered.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 12, 2020 12:20:34 GMT -5
Ok. but I have found records of James M. Roberts married to a Sarah E. who had a son William H. and I think she was listed as Elizabeth once. And the husband transferred from Kentucky. But they are in Texas and after his death she moved to New Mexico. Maybe we can we put our brains together. There are possibilities. One record I have shows her listed as Elizabeth Roberts age 56 with a son named James at 18 yrs old. But she is the same Sarah Elizabeth Roberts married to the James Roberts in case you wondered. Is this the family in question?
Sarah Elizabeth Talley Roberts (1849 - 1934), born in AL, died in NM, ( FAG #54676235) and James Madison Roberts (1833 - 1915), born in Alabama, (FAG # 75267264). James Madison Roberts and Mary Frances Baker Roberts (FAG #146110649) were parents of William Hays Roberts (1861 - 1958), born in Texas (FAG #48625869). 1st wife, Mary Frances Baker died in 1863. 2nd wife, Sarah Elizabeth Talley died in 1934 (married J M Roberts 20 May 1869 in Hays County)
3rd wife, Levonia, died in 1913.
1870 TX census, William, age 8, TX; James, age 47, AL; Elizabeth, age 21, AL 1880 TX census, Evan (William), age 19, TX (mother born in TX); J M, age 47, AL; S E, age 31, TX
1900 TX census, William, age 33, TX (mother born in TX); wife Rosa, age 33, TX; 3 children
TX D/C, William H Roberts VA Hospital, Big Spring, Howard Co, TX Father: James Roberts Mother: Mary Frances Baker Born 6 Oct 1861, Onion Creek TX Died 14 Feb 1958
James Madison Roberts, born in Alabama, is definitely not Brushy Bill's mythical half-brother.
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Post by garyabc on Apr 13, 2023 16:38:13 GMT -5
Great back and forth here! Most things just can not be proven. To disagree with respect should come back in style.
One thing is certain. If Billy lived 50 years after his official doom day he would have to be a quick, creative, convincing liar. So debating whether a particular claim was true is entertaining but not productive.
Brushy is quoted as saying that a fellow asked him a question. Only after deciding the truth couldn't hurt did he tell it.
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Post by thumbuster on Dec 5, 2023 0:54:47 GMT -5
When l was younger, I accepted Brushy Bill as Billy 100%. Now that I've gotten older, I'm leaning more towards 70/30 that he wasn't, I believe he was someone else from the Lincoln County War, possibly Marion Turner (a man who fought on the Murphy/Dolan side of the war, and disappeared from history shortly after the war ended). It's amazing how people just vanished from history back then. Dirty Steve Stephens, another Regulator, simply vanished after the war as well. Big Jim French and John Middleton, both Regulators, have varying degrees of what happened to them after the war. I have beautiful tintypes of Big Jim French and John Middleton. While the tin of Big Jim is rather ho hum, but the portrait of John Middleton is Beautiful! It is maybe one of the most fantastic portraits of a Victorian male that I have ever seen. He was a magnificent mustache! |
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Post by thumbuster on Dec 5, 2023 1:01:18 GMT -5
Great back and forth here! Most things just can not be proven. To disagree with respect should come back in style. One thing is certain. If Billy lived 50 years after his official doom day he would have to be a quick, creative, convincing liar. So debating whether a particular claim was true is entertaining but not productive. Brushy is quoted as saying that a fellow asked him a question. Only after deciding the truth couldn't hurt did he tell it. If Brushy had been Billy then he would have been arrested, tried for double murder and probably executed....just say'n. |
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Dec 5, 2023 4:37:26 GMT -5
Ok. but I have found records of James M. Roberts married to a Sarah E. who had a son William H. and I think she was listed as Elizabeth once. And the husband transferred from Kentucky. But they are in Texas and after his death she moved to New Mexico. Maybe we can we put our brains together. There are possibilities. One record I have shows her listed as Elizabeth Roberts age 56 with a son named James at 18 yrs old. But she is the same Sarah Elizabeth Roberts married to the James Roberts in case you wondered. Is this the family in question?
Sarah Elizabeth Talley Roberts (1849 - 1934), born in AL, died in NM, ( FAG #54676235) and James Madison Roberts (1833 - 1915), born in Alabama, (FAG # 75267264). James Madison Roberts and Mary Frances Baker Roberts (FAG #146110649) were parents of William Hays Roberts (1861 - 1958), born in Texas (FAG #48625869). 1st wife, Mary Frances Baker died in 1863. 2nd wife, Sarah Elizabeth Talley died in 1934 (married J M Roberts 20 May 1869 in Hays County)
3rd wife, Levonia, died in 1913.
1870 TX census, William, age 8, TX; James, age 47, AL; Elizabeth, age 21, AL 1880 TX census, Evan (William), age 19, TX (mother born in TX); J M, age 47, AL; S E, age 31, TX
1900 TX census, William, age 33, TX (mother born in TX); wife Rosa, age 33, TX; 3 children
TX D/C, William H Roberts VA Hospital, Big Spring, Howard Co, TX Father: James Roberts Mother: Mary Frances Baker Born 6 Oct 1861, Onion Creek TX Died 14 Feb 1958
James Madison Roberts, born in Alabama, is definitely not Brushy Bill's mythical half-brother.
According to Donald Cline's unpublished book, Brushy's alleged half brother in reality was his full brother James who is noted as "Infant Roberts" on Find A Grave. His name was James according to family correspondence with Cline. Perhaps census records might show the little boy as being named James. Furthermore, there was much correspondence between Morrison and other families by the name of Roberts following Brushy's death and they said that they had no idea what Morrison was talking about, and had no connection to Brushy's family. One man did say years before that Brushy met him claiming to be related, etc but far as he knew his family came out of New Mexico and not Texas with no connection to Brushy's Roberts family. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all |
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