Let's pretend for a moment - Just for fun

[Wayne Land]

Not everyone approaches questions the same way of course. Not everyone applies the same kind of logic to attempt to solve a mystery. But just for a moment, let's approach the Brushy Bill claim by creating a scenario to examine the question "What Are The Odds?".

To do that, let's pretend it is 1950 and we know for a fact that Billy The Kid is still alive and kicking somewhere in Texas and we need to find him through the process of elimination. It's just an exercise in logic! It might go something like this:

We know we need someone who is about 5' 8" tall so in order to avoid overlooking the real culprit we insist that all men in Texas within an inch or so of that height and aged 90 or so be considered. It's reasonable to think there would be hundreds of them. We send letters out to all of them and ask the ones who have larger than average wrists with small hands capable of pulling out of handcuffs submit to further examination by attending a meeting at a convention center in Dallas. I'm not sure how but let's pretend we have a way of forcing all these men to attend (we're just pretending anway). I think it's a stretch but to be more than fair, let's say we had a hundred men show up to be examined further. Once everyone has arrived and enjoyed a nice meal at our expense, we begin with a written examination asking numerous questions about the Lincoln County War, Billy The Kid's activities, the original floor plans of the Lincoln County Courthouse and the McSweens' home. We don't require a perfect score, after all, these men are all around 90 years old, but we do eliminate anyone who fails the test. We thank those who failed for their participation, give them all a small memento for their trouble and send them back home. Again, to be more than fair, let's pretend 25 or so passed the written test and remain. Next we perform a physical examination to eliminate anyone who has no scars from gunshot wounds, and anyone who is not ambidextrous. Although we'd probably already be down to just one man, to be more than fair, let's pretend we now have eliminated everyone except three old fellas who happen to meet all those criteria. We've run out of ways to test them? Well, as a last resort, after reminding them they'll be putting themselves at risk of being sent to jail or executed for murder, we ask if any of them wish to claim they are the one and only Billy The Kid. You want to take a wild guess who the one remaining candidate is? Well, it's not Oliver Pleasant Roberts. That's only an alias of his.

Don't you think Brushy Bill, birthname William Henry Roberts, would be the only old fella left? I do. I'm not suggesting this proves anything. It's only pretending. But it does help to illustrate the logic used by many who believe Brushy Bill was the one and only Billy The Kid!

[Deleted]

My tests would be a little more extensive tbh. I'd want that individual to demonstrate just how good of a marksman and rider he was, and how good he was at wrangling cattle.

Sure I'd have to consider the man's age, which is why I'd compare his performance against someone much younger of reputed skills. Even in his 80s-90s, I'd still expect a certain degree of ability.

Does that prove anything? No. But it's all apart of cumulative evidence. But then again it's Texas, most everybody knew how to rope, ride and shoot. So such a test may be meaningless.

I'd also want to test whether the man was perfectly bilingual or even trilingual, as some experts today assume Billy The Kid may have spoken Gaelic because of the Irish community he was raised up around.

I'd also go further than a physical examination, by having such a person x-rayed to truly see whether all the injuries are there or are just superficial. It's always a possibility someone fakes wounds to pass themselves off as the real thing.

I'd also want the man's medical and dental records, to have further insight into their life story--- did he really have the telltale teeth, etc. Him just owning a pair of teeth, saying it's his, is not enough because there's always that possibility of stealing teeth. I need at least an affidavit from the dentist saying he pulled those exact teeth out of his mouth.

I'd of also done more extensive questions about his life--- the details Morrison failed to ask, and then would've sent out feelers to basically confirm or debunk the man's claims. It's one thing to know details about Billy The Kid, it's another to know even more minute details in general.

And though it'd of made me the bad guy I'd of played good cop bad cop with the claimant, really laying it on thick that so much as claiming you're somebody you're not is a federal offense and this is his one and only chance to drop the charade because if he's discredited he will be arrested for identity theft and wasting the taxpayers dollars. That I want his true story--- and how this scheme came about, if indeed it is a scheme.

If the man passes those tests, as well as the particulars Wayne Land lists above, and still will not give up the claim that he's Billy The Kid then I would say his claim is either the genuine article or he's a fraud of the worst kind.

That being said, there's always that third wheel or fifth wheel option that Brushy Bill Roberts wasn't Billy The Kid but he was a relative of The Kid or member of the gang. That'd make him a fraud, but not to the degree of fraudulence that one would think, because that makes Roberts not Oliver Pleasant Roberts and that means he did assume an identity that wasn't his and that means he's a previously unknown figure in the history of Billy The Kid.

If that option is the truth--- then it begs the question why he'd claim to be The Kid when he's not. He'd have to explain himself. He has to explain himself no matter what was the truth anyways.

Personally, I think he acquired the inside knowledge of The Kid when he was working for one of Billy's friends and insiders, namely Susan McSween Barber. The picture of Brushy on the horse in front of all those tobacco signs, confirms that as he's riding a horse that has her branding iron mark "SUE".

Then, you throw in his decades long association with J. Frank Dalton, and of course Ozark Jack & Uncle Carson. These men were crazy about history and storytelling, down to the fine details. What he couldn't find out from Susan, he figured out from these men and their resources.

After all, need we forget, originally it was J. Frank Dalton who claimed to be Billy The Kid, not Brushy Bill Roberts. This is confirmed by an old newspaper account in Corpus Christi back in the early 1930s. However, when that didn't pan out and Dalton hooked up with Orvus Lee Houck he assumed the identity of Jesse James.

But Dalton himself slipped up over the years, saying in articles he wrote, that he owned a ranch in Texas and that one of his hired hands was a man named Bill Roberts and that Roberts barely survived a shoot out at the ranch. That may explain all of Brushy's wounds.

So it's in my view the mantle of Billy The Kid passed from Dalton to Brushy, which is why Dalton's claims entirely hinge on the story Roberts gave because after all, according to Dalton it was "Wild" Henry Roberts who was there to allegedly identify the body of the assumed Jesse James & "Wild" Henry Roberts was allegedly Brushy's father.

The kernel of truth, in my opinion, is that Roberts said he knew Dalton since he was 7 years old. After all, the census records show Dalton as allegedly being born in 1848 in Goliad County Texas, and Brushy lived in Hamilton County. Ironically both men are buried within 30 miles of each other. So it's probable both men did know of eachother possibly since childhood, but it's more likely that their association began in adulthood when Dalton hired Roberts as a ranch hand.

Ola Everhard said that as early as 1936 Dalton was spending days or weeks at Brushy's home, so that indicates a friendship that certainly predates that time. So maybe as early as the 1920s, maybe earlier. Who knows where the truth begins and the lies end.

Thank Jesus for DNA tests, because without those there'd of been many people who would've gotten away with identity theft and the like. That's why identification via appearance and testimony is not and was not ever concrete enough. Unfortunately, until Brushy is ever exhumed, the mystery will not end.

[Wayne Land]

I enjoyed reading your post Rufus. But let me just say, my premise was based on trying to locate the real Billy based on the evidence we actually have at hand. We don't have any DNA available, for example. We don't have any X-rays to look at, etc. Even so, I liked where you went with that.

[Wayne Land]

At age 69 I've had the experience of seeing someone I had only known briefly 50 or so years ago and instantly recognizing them. A person's mannerisms, their smile, their vocal inflections, their body language makes an indelible impression you never forget. Photographs don't show all that. I believe Martile Ables met the real Billy The Kid. I believe her husband introduced him to her in the early 1900's. I believe Severo Gallegos met the real kid on more than one occasion including the day of the escape from the courthouse in 1881.

Some wish to discredit the affidavits obtained by Morrison as being either fraudulent or simply mistaken, but I don't accept that at all. I believe Gallegos and Ables identified Brushy as Billy for one simple reason. They recognized him.

Again, the odds are clear to me. The odds are, Brushy Bill Roberts was the one and only Billy The Kid, alias William H. Bonney.

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2019 2:34:15 GMT -5 Wayne Land said:

At age 69 I've had the experience of seeing someone I had only known briefly 50 or so years ago and instantly recognizing them. A person's mannerisms, their smile, their vocal inflections, their body language makes an indelible impression you never forget. Photographs don't show all that. I believe Martile Ables met the real Billy The Kid. I believe her husband introduced him to her in the early 1900's. I believe Severo Gallegos met the real kid on more than one occasion including the day of the escape from the courthouse in 1881.

Some wish to discredit the affidavits obtained by Morrison as being either fraudulent or simply mistaken, but I don't accept that at all. I believe Gallegos and Ables identified Brushy as Billy for one simple reason. They recognized him.

Again, the odds are clear to me. The odds are, Brushy Bill Roberts was the one and only Billy The Kid, alias William H. Bonney.

I can't really argue with you on the affidavit's on Brushy's behalf. I said on my Facebook page on Brushy that of all the evidence that is arguably his best piece of support.

Many will say that these people were merely mistaken, but I know if my grandfather (d. 1996) faked his death and suddenly appeared at my door 23-24 years later I would know almost instantly that was my grandfather I was talking to.

There's people I haven't seen in 20+ years and automatically knew who they were just by looking at them, though I haven't seen them since basically the 5th grade of school.

Yes, memories fade the older we get, but when that many people, all disconnected to eachother, said that he was Billy The Kid it raises an eyebrow. Of course, it could be that in some cases that they always knew of Brushy to be The Kid, without the benefit of actually having seen THE Billy Bonney, like the woman's affidavit.

Also, there's the possibility that maybe all of them were in on the scheme. As remote a possibility that is, it cannot be ruled out entirely. I'm surprised Morrison didn't take Brushy all the way down to Fort Sumner tbh and meet face-to-face with arguably the only people who could've declared him a fake or not--- considering some of the Maxwell family was still alive and kicking.

Still, it's the one thing going for Brushy Bill Roberts, and though it cannot be ignored it is simply not strong enough evidence to say that he was.

[Wayne Land]

There's been a significant effort to prove Martile Able could not have met BTK prior to 1881 and that is probably correct. It seems pretty solid. It does appear that when she says she met him it had to have been "after" 1881. But my point is that when she did meet him it was because her husband told her who he was and John Able very likely did meet Billy prior to 1881. There's no reason to think he would have introduced someone to her as BTK unless that person was indeed BTK. She believed she had met the real Billy and she believed Brushy was him. So I think her affidavit is strong support of Brushy's claim. And of course, there is Severo Gallegos.

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2019 13:39:59 GMT -5 Wayne Land said:

There's been a significant effort to prove Martile Able could not have met BTK prior to 1881 and that is probably correct. It seems pretty solid. It does appear that when she says she met him it had to have been "after" 1881. But my point is that when she did meet him it was because her husband told her who he was and John Able very likely did meet Billy prior to 1881. There's no reason to think he would have introduced someone to her as BTK unless that person was indeed BTK. She believed she had met the real Billy and she believed Brushy was him. So I think her affidavit is strong support of Brushy's claim. And of course, there is Severo Gallegos.

While I have never seen the notebooks and affidavits, what I do know is that Martile Abel say that she knew BBR's as The Kid. She said she last seen him in 1902. Her husband, she insisted, said that BBR's and Billy The Kid were one and the same. Martile & John Abel were married in 1898. How Abel knew the real Billy The Kid, I'm not sure. I don't think that was ever really explained.

I have read from you before that another claimant was brought to her in the past prior to BBR's and that she discredited that person, later to validate Roberts claim. This story, I've never read elsewhere. Maybe you can cite the source of that.

Mind you, if BBR's really was Oliver Pleasant Roberts and this was all an orchestrated charade, in 1898-1902 he'd of been 30-34 years old if we go by Roberts original tombstone saying he was born 1868.

He'd of certainly been old enough to have maybe convinced some that he was The Kid. But what's more intriguing to me is this--- all the skeptics say Roberts only came out with The Kid stuff at such & such a time, yet if this woman's testimony is credible it means as early as 1900-1902 he was already calling himself Billy The Kid.

Far as we know, his association with J. Frank Dalton goes back at least to the 1930s, so we unless we find a prior association between the two men it stands to reason that Brushy Bill Roberts at least in his 20s was calling himself Billy The Kid, even if he was an imposter.

This is evidence that Roberts for most of his life was calling himself Billy The Kid and that cannot be ignored because it means he was doing it before meeting J. Frank Dalton--- unless, of course, we find Roberts associated with him in the 1890s-1910s which is possible considering Roberts did claim he knew Dalton since he was 7 years old, which might be the kernel of truth in the Brushy & Dalton crossover stories.

Jesus bless you and your family

[Wayne Land]

I've seen more than one source stating Martile Able had been asked to identify another person and that she would not identify him. I did find this, from an article from the paper in El Paso. I'm not sure the name of the paper or the date of the article but it had to be soon after Brushy's meeting with Martile Able.

<<"I knew him the moment I saw him," said Mrs. Able, who was a personal friend of The Kid back in the 1880's. "He is alive. Others have tried to impersonate him, but the man I talked to in July was the real Billy. A long time ago a man was brought before me as Billy the Kid. But he wasn't. He was a faker. But I recognized this Billy, because I know him well."

"I had not seen Billy since before Pat Garrett claimed he shot him," she said. "When Billy's lawyer, Wiliam V. Morrison of St. Louis, brought Billy to the home of my grandson in the Lower Valley, he asked Billy, "Do you know this lady?" "And Billy said, 'Sure. That's John Able's wife.' "Would a faker know my husband, John or remember me?">>

Parts of this article do bother me because they clearly represent her as claiming to have known Billy before 1881 and she almost certainly could not have. But she was very old and newspaper reporters have a way of embelishing. I know this comes as a surprise but they often even misquoted people. So in evaluating her credibility I tend to go by what was written in her affidavit. I would post an image of the whole article but it's too large to include as an attachment. I could probably email it if anyone would like to read the whole thing.

I also saw mention somewhere else regarding another claimant being brought to her that even included the name of the man. That mention also claimed she denied the other man. Someone else might be able to recall the name. Sadly, I don't remember where I read that. There's been a great deal of water under the bridge since then.

[Deleted]

Dec 4, 2019 1:57:18 GMT -5 Wayne Land said:

I've seen more than one source stating Martile Able had been asked to identify another person and that she would not identify him. I did find this, from an article from the paper in El Paso. I'm not sure the name of the paper or the date of the article but it had to be soon after Brushy's meeting with Martile Able.

<<"I knew him the moment I saw him," said Mrs. Able, who was a personal friend of The Kid back in the 1880's. "He is alive. Others have tried to impersonate him, but the man I talked to in July was the real Billy. A long time ago a man was brought before me as Billy the Kid. But he wasn't. He was a faker. But I recognized this Billy, because I know him well."

"I had not seen Billy since before Pat Garrett claimed he shot him," she said. "When Billy's lawyer, Wiliam V. Morrison of St. Louis, brought Billy to the home of my grandson in the Lower Valley, he asked Billy, "Do you know this lady?" "And Billy said, 'Sure. That's John Able's wife.' "Would a faker know my husband, John or remember me?">>

Parts of this article do bother me because they clearly represent her as claiming to have known Billy before 1881 and she almost certainly could not have. But she was very old and newspaper reporters have a way of embelishing. I know this comes as a surprise but they often even misquoted people. So in evaluating her credibility I tend to go by what was written in her affidavit. I would post an image of the whole article but it's too large to include as an attachment. I could probably email it if anyone would like to read the whole thing.

I also saw mention somewhere else regarding another claimant being brought to her that even included the name of the man. That mention also claimed she denied the other man. Someone else might be able to recall the name. Sadly, I don't remember where I read that. There's been a great deal of water under the bridge since then.

It does make me wonder if the other claimant was J. Frank Dalton, since there is evidence during the early 1930s (Corpus Christi Caller) that Dalton tried passing himself off as Billy The Kid. After that he tried to say he was lawman Frank Dalton until April 1948, and of course after that he claimed to be Jesse James.

There's been at least 5 men who claimed to be Billy The Kid, but only John Miller & Brushy Bill Roberts remain as viable candidates.




P.S.

Feel free to email me the newspaper article. Send me an inbox on here, and I'll give you my email address.

[Texas Truth Teller]

<<"I knew him the moment I saw him," said Mrs. Able, who was a personal friend of The Kid back in the 1880's. "He is alive. Others have tried to impersonate him, but the man I talked to in July was the real Billy. A long time ago a man was brought before me as Billy the Kid. But he wasn't. He was a faker. But I recognized this Billy, because I know him well."

"I had not seen Billy since before Pat Garrett claimed he shot him," she said. "When Billy's lawyer, Wiliam V. Morrison of St. Louis, brought Billy to the home of my grandson in the Lower Valley, he asked Billy, "Do you know this lady?" "And Billy said, 'Sure. That's John Able's wife.' "Would a faker know my husband, John or remember me?">>

Rufus,

This is reproduced on pp. 111 & 112 of "Alias Billy the Kid", and attributed to an El Paso reporter.

[Texas Truth Teller]

Dec 4, 2019 9:12:10 GMT -5 @rufus said:

Dec 4, 2019 1:57:18 GMT -5 Wayne Land said:

I've seen more than one source stating Martile Able had been asked to identify another person and that she would not identify him. I did find this, from an article from the paper in El Paso. I'm not sure the name of the paper or the date of the article but it had to be soon after Brushy's meeting with Martile Able.

<<"I knew him the moment I saw him," said Mrs. Able, who was a personal friend of The Kid back in the 1880's. "He is alive. Others have tried to impersonate him, but the man I talked to in July was the real Billy. A long time ago a man was brought before me as Billy the Kid. But he wasn't. He was a faker. But I recognized this Billy, because I know him well."

"I had not seen Billy since before Pat Garrett claimed he shot him," she said. "When Billy's lawyer, Wiliam V. Morrison of St. Louis, brought Billy to the home of my grandson in the Lower Valley, he asked Billy, "Do you know this lady?" "And Billy said, 'Sure. That's John Able's wife.' "Would a faker know my husband, John or remember me?">>

Parts of this article do bother me because they clearly represent her as claiming to have known Billy before 1881 and she almost certainly could not have. But she was very old and newspaper reporters have a way of embelishing. I know this comes as a surprise but they often even misquoted people. So in evaluating her credibility I tend to go by what was written in her affidavit. I would post an image of the whole article but it's too large to include as an attachment. I could probably email it if anyone would like to read the whole thing.

I also saw mention somewhere else regarding another claimant being brought to her that even included the name of the man. That mention also claimed she denied the other man. Someone else might be able to recall the name. Sadly, I don't remember where I read that. There's been a great deal of water under the bridge since then.

It does make me wonder if the other claimant was J. Frank Dalton, since there is evidence during the early 1930s (Corpus Christi Caller) that Dalton tried passing himself off as Billy The Kid. After that he tried to say he was lawman Frank Dalton until April 1948, and of course after that he claimed to be Jesse James.

There's been at least 5 men who claimed to be Billy The Kid, but only John Miller & Brushy Bill Roberts remain as viable candidates.




P.S.

Feel free to email me the newspaper article. Send me an inbox on here, and I'll give you my email address.

Rufus,

There is an interesting article about J Frank Dalton in the 28 October 1943 Camerom, Texas, newspaper on Newspapers.com.

Some excerpts:

"He identified the body of Jesse James."

"He travels much, lectures, writes stories of the old days and spins yarns that smack of danger along the Kaw where the Younger and James Boys hung up a record never equalled during the days of Quantrill"

"He will lecture on the public square Saturday."

[MissyS]

There's some interesting info about Fiddling Henry Smith in the book Tall Tales and Half Truths of Billy the Kid, by John LeMay,(not quoting word for word) but that Fiddling Smith never claimed to be BTK himself, it was ranchers and friends that knew him that said it after he was found dead outside Lordsburg NM in 1937, they believed that Lew Wallace and Garrett planned a staged shootout in Fort Sumner to help Billy go free. Fiddling Henry did claim to be an expert on BTK and had told a story I believe to John Graham that Billy sent a hired servant to get beef that night, and when the servant was shot Billy with the help of friends faked his death by hiding the servant's body and playing dead in the coffin for the coroner's jury. I believe this was also in an article in the March 1980 Frontiers Times Magazine,and there's an interesting photo of Fiddling Henry Smith taken in El Paso in 1937 in the book by John LeMay. I don't know if it's true that Fiddling Smith had never claimed to be BTK?, he may have told that to the ranchers and friends as they got the idea somehow? I wonder when Martile Abel discredited the BTK claimant if it was after 1937?, because that was the year Fiddling Henry Smith had died.  There's really not that much that can be found about this interesting man. I wonder if it was him that Martile Abel denied?

[Deleted]

Dec 5, 2019 22:12:03 GMT -5 MissyS said:

There's some interesting info about Fiddling Henry Smith in the book Tall Tales and Half Truths of Billy the Kid, by John LeMay,(not quoting word for word) but that Fiddling Smith never claimed to be BTK himself, it was ranchers and friends that knew him that said it after he was found dead outside Lordsburg NM in 1937, they believed that Lew Wallace and Garrett planned a staged shootout in Fort Sumner to help Billy go free. Fiddling Henry did claim to be an expert on BTK and had told a story I believe to John Graham that Billy sent a hired servant to get beef that night, and when the servant was shot Billy with the help of friends faked his death by hiding the servant's body and playing dead in the coffin for the coroner's jury. I believe this was also in an article in the March 1980 Frontiers Times Magazine,and there's an interesting photo of Fiddling Henry Smith taken in El Paso in 1937 in the book by John LeMay. I don't know if it's true that Fiddling Smith had never claimed to be BTK?, he may have told that to the ranchers and friends as they got the idea somehow? I wonder when Martile Abel discredited the BTK claimant if it was after 1937?, because that was the year Fiddling Henry Smith had died.  There's really not that much that can be found about this interesting man. I wonder if it was him that Martile Abel denied?

Apparently she must've discredited the man before he died, and he must've claimed to be The Kid. Then again she said that several claimed to be The Kid and that they were all fakers. Whether that's a figure of speech or whether she was always a point of reference in ruling out Kid claimants anyone's guess.

Wayne says that he saw either a book or newspaper with her mentioning Henry Smith by name, but, I haven't seen it. I'm still looking though.

Jesus bless you and your family

[MissyS]

There was a man named Henry Street Smith that I believed claimed he was Billy the Kid? I don't know if he and Fiddling Henry Smith is the same man? But what are the odds they aren't? Here is a link to an article about him.

www.newspapers.com/clip/21828069/another_article_about_henry_street/

[nmjames]

MissyS

It is the same man. To me there is a better newspaper article in the Express and News, San Antonio, Texas, 06 Dec. 1964, page 83. It is about Leslie Traylor. I came across Mr. Traylor a few years back when I was looking into the picture said to have been of John Able and Billy the Kid. On the back of the picture I found going through files was a statement made by Mr. Traylor. I first thought he was talking about J. Frank Dalton but later found the newspaper article on Henry Street Smith.