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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 24, 2019 21:05:36 GMT -5
[quote timestamp="1566642323" source="/post/5336/thread" Brushy reported his name was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born about 1878, when he registered for the WWI draft, and reported his birth year was about 1878 in the 1920 and 1930 census of Van Zandt County. Brushy's story lacks credibility, for no evidence has been found that indicates Brushy Bill Roberts and Oliver Pleasant Roberts were 2 different men. There s is no credible evidence either that Billy was shot by Garrett, just people said that he did ... there are many versions of that night and the day he escaped from Lincoln jail, that is why forums like this exist, and finaly I do believe O.P. Roberts and Brushy were 2 different people, your census record dont prove nothing that they were the same sorry, Census, land, marriage, death, and WWI registrations prove that Oliver P Roberts and his parents lived in the same county where Brushy lived, and that it was Oliver Roberts, not Brushy Bill or William Henry Roberts, that married Mollie Brown, and buried Loutecia. The theory that Oliver P Roberts died or left the area, and Brushy Bill assumed his identity is a fantasy. Oliver P Roberts assumed the alias of Brushy Bill Roberts after 1930, and spun an incredible story of adventure for Morrison. There are no records or credible evidence indicating Oliver P Roberts and Brushy Bill Roberts were two different men.
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Post by chivato88 on Aug 25, 2019 12:06:06 GMT -5
There s is no credible evidence either that Billy was shot by Garrett, just people said that he did ... there are many versions of that night and the day he escaped from Lincoln jail, that is why forums like this exist, and finaly I do believe O.P. Roberts and Brushy were 2 different people, your census record dont prove nothing that they were the same sorry, Census, land, marriage, death, and WWI registrations prove that Oliver P Roberts and his parents lived in the same county where Brushy lived, and that it was Oliver Roberts, not Brushy Bill or William Henry Roberts, that married Mollie Brown, and buried Loutecia. The theory that Oliver P Roberts died or left the area, and Brushy Bill assumed his identity is a fantasy. Oliver P Roberts assumed the alias of Brushy Bill Roberts after 1930, and spun an incredible story of adventure for Morrison. There are no records or credible evidence indicating Oliver P Roberts and Brushy Bill Roberts were two different men. [br I already know all that TTT, I just wanted to know your toughts about Paco Anaya's declaration about Billy's age, do you think there s any truth in that or are you completly conviced he was born in 1859
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 25, 2019 13:56:51 GMT -5
Census, land, marriage, death, and WWI registrations prove that Oliver P Roberts and his parents lived in the same county where Brushy lived, and that it was Oliver Roberts, not Brushy Bill or William Henry Roberts, that married Mollie Brown, and buried Loutecia. The theory that Oliver P Roberts died or left the area, and Brushy Bill assumed his identity is a fantasy. Oliver P Roberts assumed the alias of Brushy Bill Roberts after 1930, and spun an incredible story of adventure for Morrison. There are no records or credible evidence indicating Oliver P Roberts and Brushy Bill Roberts were two different men. [br I already know all that TTT, I just wanted to know your toughts about Paco Anaya's declaration about Billy's age, do you think there s any truth in that or are you completly conviced he was born in 1859 chivato88, Sorry that I misunderstood. Paco Anaya, age 20, was in Fort Sumer, San Miguel County, in the 1880 census of New Mexico. There is no reason to doubt that he knew Henry McCarty, aka BtK, and was aware that they were the same age. Anaya's statement that they were born born about the same time in 1859 is credible. Brushy Bill Roberts, previously known as Oliver P Roberts, was born in 1879. Brushy Bill Roberts and BtK were 2 different men.
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Post by chivato88 on Aug 25, 2019 18:16:39 GMT -5
[br I already know all that TTT, I just wanted to know your toughts about Paco Anaya's declaration about Billy's age, do you think there s any truth in that or are you completly conviced he was born in 1859 chivato88, Sorry that I misunderstood. Paco Anaya, age 20, was in Fort Sumer, San Miguel County, in the 1880 census of New Mexico. There is no reason to doubt that he knew Henry McCarty, aka BtK, and was aware that they were the same age. Anaya's statement that they were born born about the same time in 1859 is credible. Brushy Bill Roberts, previously known as Oliver P Roberts, was born in 1879. Brushy Bill Roberts and BtK were 2 different men.
Ok thank you for your answer, I can see that your really minded on census record, but Paco was born in 1862 not 1859...
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 25, 2019 19:05:12 GMT -5
chivato88, Sorry that I misunderstood. Paco Anaya, age 20, was in Fort Sumer, San Miguel County, in the 1880 census of New Mexico. There is no reason to doubt that he knew Henry McCarty, aka BtK, and was aware that they were the same age. Anaya's statement that they were born born about the same time in 1859 is credible. Brushy Bill Roberts, previously known as Oliver P Roberts, was born in 1879. Brushy Bill Roberts and BtK were 2 different men.
Ok thank you for your answer, I can see that your really minded on census record, but Paco was born in 1862 not 1859... chivato, You are correct. Paco was not born n 1859. Ages reported in census records are approximate. According to Find A Grave memorial #13370702, he was born 23 January 1861, which is probably correct. If a New Mexico death certificate for Paco exists, the death date found on a death certificate would be accurate.
Paco might have been a nickname. Records indicate his name was A. Policarpio Anaya. He was appointed postmaster of Sunnyside, Guadalupe County, NM, on 18 Jan 1908. His father was Jesus Anaya, and his mother was Tomasa.
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Post by leeb on Aug 26, 2019 13:02:29 GMT -5
chivato88, Sorry that I misunderstood. Paco Anaya, age 20, was in Fort Sumer, San Miguel County, in the 1880 census of New Mexico. There is no reason to doubt that he knew Henry McCarty, aka BtK, and was aware that they were the same age. Anaya's statement that they were born born about the same time in 1859 is credible. Brushy Bill Roberts, previously known as Oliver P Roberts, was born in 1879. Brushy Bill Roberts and BtK were 2 different men.
Ok thank you for your answer, I can see that your really minded on census record, but Paco was born in 1862 not 1859... census records are far from reliable but unfortunately there really isn't much else to go on.
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Post by chivato88 on Aug 26, 2019 17:41:08 GMT -5
Ok thank you for your answer, I can see that your really minded on census record, but Paco was born in 1862 not 1859... census records are far from reliable but unfortunately there really isn't much else to go on. I have to agree, p.150 of Billy the Kid " His legacy in Guadalupe County" theres a June 1880 census record of Fort Sumner and Cedar Springs that indicates that Wm. Bonny worked in cattle and was 25 years old.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 26, 2019 18:36:24 GMT -5
census records are far from reliable but unfortunately there really isn't much else to go on. I have to agree, p.150 of Billy the Kid " His legacy in Guadalupe County" theres a June 1880 census record of Fort Sumner and Cedar Springs that indicates that Wm. Bonny worked in cattle and was 25 years old. Census records are useful, but ages are approximate. Estimated birth year improves if the same individual is found in multiple census years. Paco was the son of Jesus and Tomasa. Paco was not in the household of Jesus in the 1860 census (because he had not been born). In the 1870 census, the household of Jesus and Tomasa incudes Policarpio, age 9. In the 1880 census, Paco's age is reported as 20. In the 1900 census, Policarpio's birth date is reported as January 1862. The 1910 census shows that Paco was born in 1864. The 1920 census shows Paco was born in 1862. The 1930 census shows A. P. Anaya was born in 1862. The 1940 census shows Apolicarpio was born in 1861.
His find a grave memorial shows his date of birth as 23 Jan 1861. His date of birth was probably 23 Jan 1862.
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Post by chivato88 on Aug 26, 2019 18:57:41 GMT -5
I have to agree, p.150 of Billy the Kid " His legacy in Guadalupe County" theres a June 1880 census record of Fort Sumner and Cedar Springs that indicates that Wm. Bonny worked in cattle and was 25 years old. Census records are useful, but ages are approximate. Estimated birth year improves if the same individual is found in multiple census years. Paco was the son of Jesus and Tomasa. Paco was not in the household of Jesus in the 1860 census (because he had not been born). In the 1870 census, the household of Jesus and Tomasa incudes Policarpio, age 9. In the 1880 census, Paco's age is reported as 20. In the 1900 census, Policarpio's birth date is reported as January 1862. The 1910 census shows that Paco was born in 1864. The 1920 census shows Paco was born in 1862. The 1930 census shows A. P. Anaya was born in 1862. The 1940 census shows Apolicarpio was born in 1861.
His find a grave memorial shows his date of birth as 23 Jan 1861. His date of birth was probably 23 Jan 1862.
TTT Thank you for clearing that up, I had no idea that they were so unprecised like that with ages, Paco is one perfect exemple.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 15, 2020 2:53:16 GMT -5
Brushy told Henry J. Walker he was born in 1861 and he wrote to Morrison that he was born 1861 and the guy at Fort Smith said Billy's age was a couple years younger than Billy claimed putting it about 1861. I dont believe Brushy said 1859 or some of the other mistakes that were made by the authors in the book, that's on them. Anyway, great thread, all of you are really good at stuff and I found everything I was looking for in this thread. Im gonna try finding his ancestry again like I always do but this time I'll be using the name Daugherty. I remember seeing the name before when I was looking for Catherine McCarty records but now I just noticed Brushy said he was raised on the Daugherty Ranch so Im just gonna look and try to find something. Eventually this Brushy lead is gonna unlock the whole mystery of the Kid's origins. I see little things all the time that say if people just keep sticking with good ole Brushy then somebody is gonna crack the whole dern case wide open. Soon!
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 15, 2020 14:05:47 GMT -5
Brushy told Henry J. Walker he was born in 1861 and he wrote to Morrison that he was born 1861 and the guy at Fort Smith said Billy's age was a couple years younger than Billy claimed putting it about 1861. I dont believe Brushy said 1859 or some of the other mistakes that were made by the authors in the book, that's on them. Anyway, great thread, all of you are really good at stuff and I found everything I was looking for in this thread. Im gonna try finding his ancestry again like I always do but this time I'll be using the name Daugherty. I remember seeing the name before when I was looking for Catherine McCarty records but now I just noticed Brushy said he was raised on the Daugherty Ranch so Im just gonna look and try to find something. Eventually this Brushy lead is gonna unlock the whole mystery of the Kid's origins. I see little things all the time that say if people just keep sticking with good ole Brushy then somebody is gonna crack the whole dern case wide open. Soon! BRUSHY'S SHIFTING BIRTHDAY Brushy to Morrison: 31 December 1859 Brushy to St Louis paper: 1858 or 1859 Actual: 26 August 1879 WWI registration: 26 August 1878 1900 census: August 1879 1910 census: 1878 or 1879 1920 census: 1878 1930 census: 1878 or 1879 1940 census: 1869 or 1870 TX death certificate: 31 December 1868 First headstone: 31 December 1868 Tourist headstone: 31 December 1859
St Louis Post Dispatch, 27 Nov 1949, p. 65 col. 5 RE: Article, J Frank Dalton's claim that he was Jesse James Quote, "Then there was Brushy Bill Roberts of Hico, Tex., whose father, he said, was one of the oldest members of the James gang. He himself was a member for a time in his late teens. Brushy Bill is 91. Brushy Bill said he has known all through the years that Jesse James was alive. He came to Meramec, took one look at the old man and said that he was Jesse James."
1949 minus 91 places the birth of Brushy in 1858 or 1859. J Frank Dalton and Brush Bill Roberts were photographed together as "gunslingers" on the ranch of DeWitt Travis in Longviews in 1943.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 15, 2020 19:01:26 GMT -5
Brushy told Henry J. Walker he was born in 1861 and he wrote to Morrison that he was born 1861 and the guy at Fort Smith said Billy's age was a couple years younger than Billy claimed putting it about 1861. I dont believe Brushy said 1859 or some of the other mistakes that were made by the authors in the book, that's on them. Anyway, great thread, all of you are really good at stuff and I found everything I was looking for in this thread. Im gonna try finding his ancestry again like I always do but this time I'll be using the name Daugherty. I remember seeing the name before when I was looking for Catherine McCarty records but now I just noticed Brushy said he was raised on the Daugherty Ranch so Im just gonna look and try to find something. Eventually this Brushy lead is gonna unlock the whole mystery of the Kid's origins. I see little things all the time that say if people just keep sticking with good ole Brushy then somebody is gonna crack the whole dern case wide open. Soon! Did Morrison get it wrong twice?
p. 16 "Morrison was unable to find any verification of the story that Billy left Silver City at the age of twelve after committing his first murder. He left, according to Roberts' story, in 1872, at that age, but it was to go back to Texas to see his people." Again, Brushy is claiming he was born in 1859, although all evidence indicates he was born 26 August 1879.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 16, 2020 0:44:54 GMT -5
Yes, I see, good catch about the Dalton interview but as far as Morrison I think it is possible he was pushing the 1859 date or maybe he did tell Morrison but I know for a fact he told Morrison 1861 in a letter and he told Walker at Meramec Caverns 1861 and I believe that matches up with his audio interview as well. Did Morrison get it wrong twice. Yeah ...honestly ...probably... Don't you think it is more likely that Brushy said "I left at that age because...." instead of "I left at that age .. in 1872, because..." because Morrison is referring to the Garrett book that only says Billy left Silver City at age 12 and it doesn't mention the year so Brushy was probably just responding to the question "Did you really leave Silver City when you were twelve cuz you killed a guy?" And Brushy answered "I did leave at the age but it was to go see my family." But Morrison is filling in the blanks for us with extra info so we don't get confused . haha. He's just making it more confusing. So when Brushy says he did leave Silver City at age 12 that is correct because he would have been 12 when Catherine died. I forget when Billy left for sure or what month Brushy said he did or when he came back...but that's the best I got for now because I am still in Philippines with basically none of my resources, it's hard to keep it all straight after two years without my stuff.
Anyway, I came here to find something else so that when I crack this case wide open there won't have to be anymore debate. But I won't take sole credit... this is a team effort ... this group right here is where the real stuff gets done... and all of us will go down in history as the people who solved it.
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