Newbie with some Questions

[vashthestampede]

Hey there guys Newbie here:) My interest in this story started with the Unsolved Mysteries episode I saw when I was a boy in the 90s and also Emilio Estevez portrayal of Brushy in Young Guns. I am not sure what to think of his story, but I am into anomalous subjects, and conspiracies so this fits me pretty well. I'm of the opinion that the textbook version of history is not what reality actually is, on various subjects, but that is my opinion.

It seems that many have very ugly things to say about Brushy, his story has become very controversial over time, especially where skeptics congregate so I am not sure what to believe anymore. I hope I do not irritate anyone for lack of knowledge but I really want to learn more to come up with my own decisions, and I hope you will all bear with me:)

I am curious on a few things so i will start off with a few questions

1) It is claimed that Brushy could not speak Spanish, but I've heard it both ways even that he could speak Native

what is the truth?

2) Could Billy the Kid write and read? Brushy's literacy comes into question in Skeptic circles and I have seen letters and stuffs that Billy was supposed to have written.

3) How easy would it be to fake your Identity back then with certificates and stuffs? I heard it said that Brushy's family Bible listed him as being born in 1879 and backed up on his WW1 registration. I am confused on his actual age at time of death was he 90 or in his 70s?

Hope my blather doesn't irritate:P

   

[mckinley412]

Handwriting analysis has confirmed Billy wrote all his letters. Brushy could write and the census taker said he could also. About 9-11 people have confirmed Brushy knew Spanish.

[clydec]

Brushy had a separate family bible I believe that shows him being born in 1859. How accurate that date is is up for debate. I know one thing, if Brushy was a faker he was a damn good one and fooled a lot of people, but I think he was the real deal.

[leeb]

Brushy was born on 31/12/1859 also born on 31/12/1868 and his last date of birth was 26/8/1879.
Hope that helps

[Texas Truth Teller]

vashthestampede,
Good questions with no conclusive answers. Facts about Brushy are few and far between.
1. Could Brushy speak Spanish? No facts, just different stories and opinions that he could or couldn't.
2. Census reports and other evidence indicate that Brushy possessed rudimentary writing and spelling skills.
3. There are 3 versions of his birth date.
a. His supposed birth date of 31 December 1859 provided by Brushy is not supported by any other credible source, but has been repeated by various authors. Jameson, in "Billy the Kid, The Lost Interviews", p. 32, made a unsubstantiated claim that a Bible, originally belonging to James Henry Roberts, was found in a trunk in the possession of Lizzie's grandson with the 31 December 1859 date. There was no explanation of how Brushy kept the Bible from May 1874 until 1949 as he traveled to Europe, South America, Mexico, and all over the west.
b. The name on the death certificate of Brushy Bill is Ollie L. Roberts, born 31 December 1868. The information was provided by his last wife, Malinda E. Roberts, which implies that is what he told her. That is the same name and date of birth that was on his initial cemetery marker.
c. His actual name was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, and date of birth was 26 August 1879, as he reported when he registered for the WWI Draft on 12 September 1918. The first WWI Registration was 5 June 1917, was for men aged twenty-one to thirty-one, men born between 6 June 1886 and 5 June 1896. Oliver P Roberts, born 26 August 1879, was not required to register at that time. The third WWI Registration was 12 Sept 1918, for men aged eighteen to twenty-one and thirty-one to forty-five, men born between 11 Sept 1872 and 12 Sept 1900. Oliver P. Roberts was included in that group and required to register.

Brushy, who claimed he was born in 1859, would not have been required to register.

To maintain the slim possibility that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid, two theories have been proposed: that Brushy changed his year of birth to 1868, avoiding suspicion that he might be Billy the Kid because he was too young; that assumed the alias of Oliver P. Roberts, even though there is no evidence that Oliver Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson left Van Zandt County before Brushy married Mollie Brown as Oliver Roberts. No literature has ever been found that identified Billy the Kid as William Henry Roberts, and the theory that it was necessary for Brushy to use an alias is baseless.

Brushy was a damn good faker and fooled a lot of people and continues to do so.

[mckinley412]

TTT, there are many who met him who claimed that he knew Spanish well. Between 9-11 people if not more. This has been discussed and there was taped recording of him. Their names are online. But there is hardly anyone who knew him that claims he could not. If there was there would be a list and it would be something. I tend to lean toward his 1861 birthdate which you didn't mention. There is a letter written by him on this site which shows he made mostly the same errors as the real Kid did. The letter is dated before his wife knew of his claim which means she didnt write it. Like Billy he was bad with periods at the end of sentences and capitalization. You should know these details by now and not be misleading people who are new.

[MissyS]

It was noted that Brushy spoke with Severo's Mexican neighbor Josephine Sanchez, in perfect Spanish, Jim Tully also signed an affidavit that Brushy could speak Spanish as well as a native. Bob Young, Alton Thorton, W. F. Hafer, Jimmy Ramage, Ablo Norman, Tom Turner, and L. L. Gamble also said Brushy was fluent in Spanish. Billy the Kid could have even been trilingual?, if this article can be believed that he once was an interpreter for someone:
www.thevintagenews.com/2018/01/23/billy-the-kid-was-trilingual/

[nmjames]

MissyS

I researched the Josephine Sanchez story a few years back. I don't think Brushy ever met Josephine Sanchez. I know all about Jim Tully and he said a lot of things. I even know one of his daughters and have talked to her about this. I have a copy of one of Mr. Tully's affidavit and he does not say anything about Brushy speaking Spanish. If you will look in Alias Billy the Kid and read what Morrison said and read that Severo Gallegos said in two different newspaper articles, he states that he met Brushy in a Ruidoso tourist court and this is also what Morrison said. Morrison never said anything about the meeting with Mrs. Sanchez.

I have talked to three different people that state Brushy couldn't speak Spanish so what we have is this person said he could and others say he couldn't. If there is a tape of him speaking Spanish, I would like to hear it.

It is also strange to me that not one of the Affidavit's in Morrison's book say anything about Brushy speaking Spanish.

What I see in your article is about Billy the Kid. He could speak Spanish but Brushy may not have been able to.

[Wayne Land]

Morrison did not mention meeting with Sanchez but that doesn't mean they didn't. Jim Tully said they did. That doesn't mean he lied. He "said a lot of things"? Does that mean he couldn't have been telling the truth about Sanchez meeting Brushy? If you want to suggest he lied, then show us some evidence that he lied. So his affidavit doesn't mention Brushy speaking Spanish. "If" Sanchez did not speak english at all, and she had a talk with Brushy then he had to be using Spanish for that conversation. I understand there is no proof of this meeting ever happening, but there is also no proof it did not happen.

[nmjames]

Wayne,

Can you show me where Mr. Tully said they did? By the way Mrs. Sanchez did speak English.

[lacowboy]

Wayne the entire problem with Brushy/Billy debate is there is no proof. No proof Oliver P Robert's was killed and never heard from again. No proof he didn't. People who pretend to tell the truth will throw census records in your face all day as if they were gospel. There is absolutely no proof that the people listed on those records are actually who they said they were. No identification required ever.
I believe the OP ask how easy it would have been to fake your identity back then. Well I'll say anybody could be whoever they say they were no mater who they really were no way to prove any different. Brushy used various forms of the name Oliver with different middle names on different occasions. There also is no proof that even the same person used those names. Just not much proof of anything.

[Wayne Land]

That's kind of my point in the above post. But at the same time, I get tired of being told I can't believe what anyone says unless they have ironclad proof of it. I know one can not believe everything they read, but I won't accept that I can't believe "anything" I read in a book written by a seemingly honest author. Now I've gone and stirred that stink again. I'm gonna get a long list from TTT of all the "lies" told by Brushy authors. Oh well. Life is a circle isn't it?

[clydec]

nmjames, you should get in touch with a fellow by the name of Billy Randolph. Billy is the great great grandson of Sherrif William Brady who was killed by the regulators, but he is also the nephew of Josephine Sanchez and knew her before she died. He told me that the meeting between Josephine and Brushy definitely did happen and that they spoke to each other in fluent Spanish. He also said that Josephine tested Brushy by asking him a question that she felt only the real Billy the kid would know the answer to. Something that was not well known to the public, but mostly to her family. Brushy answered her question quickly and correctly. Oh, by the way Billy Randolph and most of his family believe Brushy was the kid.

[leeb]

The question was not well known to the public but also known to the public?

[nmjames]

Clyde,

Thanks, I will get in touch with Mr. Randolph. Can you PM how to make contact. I do know a few of the Brady's and will PM you a few things I have been told. When I was doing some of my research, the Randolph's are kin to the Brady's.

Thanks,
I will PM you.
nmjames