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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jan 29, 2019 13:12:50 GMT -5
oluckyman, Census, cemetery, death, and land records substantiate the relationships of H O Roberts you described. Information about Joseph Roberts and Rachel Henson and their descendants in your Ancestry.com tree is also credible. It shows Martha Roberts Heath was a half-sister of Oliver P Roberts, and that Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson was the mother of Oliver P Roberts. Both of those names appear in Brushy’s story.
Credible information in your tree, based on primary sources, reveals that relationships depicted in the genealogy of William Henry Roberts, found on page 90 of"The Return of Billy the Kid", are not based on available facts. The relationships are a combination of the actual family group of Henry Oliver Roberts and his first wife, Carole Dunn; the parents claimed Brushy Bill; and other misinformation.
If the next generation of Roberts is added to your tree, it will show Geneva Roberts as the daughter of Thomas U. Roberts. She wrote the letter that gave the birth date of Oliver Roberts as 26 August 1879. Brushy, who registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, said he was born 26 August 1878. He registered 12 September 1918 as required by third draft registration that required men ages 18 to 45 to register. Oliver P Roberts was 40. (Brushy Bill, who said he was born in 1859, would have been 58, would not have been required to register.) A review of additional census records would show that Oliver Roberts, age 30, and wife Anna lived in Van Zandt County in 1910; Oliver P Roberts, age 40, widower, lived n Van Zandt County in 1920; Oliver Roberts, age 52, and Lutisha (Loutecia) lived in Van in 1930; and Ollie Roberts, age 70, and Lutecia, lived in Gregg County in 1940.
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Post by mckinley412 on Feb 10, 2019 2:13:14 GMT -5
i may be wrong but i seem to remember Francis Dunn was not married to Elizabeth Bolinger. I think it was a mistake someone made when building their family tree. idk for sure anymore. but keep it in mind when looking at it all.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 10, 2019 11:19:57 GMT -5
oluckyman, Good idea. Documentation provides credibility. There are 7 children of T. U. and Mattie Roberts identified in the 1920 and 1930 census records. An 8th child, Hazel, is identified in a 1921 Van Zandt County death certificate
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Post by mckinley412 on Feb 13, 2019 6:01:06 GMT -5
Eva Talitha was married to Samuel Bolinger in Tennessee. There is record of it. There is no record that Elizabeth Bolinger was married to Francis Dunn, only someones mistaken Family tree that was put together on a geneology site. As far as I know.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 21, 2019 18:46:23 GMT -5
" There is no record that Elizabeth Bolinger was married to Francis Dunn, only someones mistaken Family tree that was put together on a geneology site. As far as I know."
Correct. No marriage record has been found. That does not mean that Elizabeth Bolinger was not the first wife of Francis Dunn.
See Memorial ID 53186891
Francis Dunn was the father of Caroline Dunn. Jameson, in "The Return of Billy the Kid", p. 90, included a chart that erroneously showed William Dunn as the father of Caroline Dunn, one of many unsupported claims.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 21, 2019 22:04:20 GMT -5
oluckyman, Geneva Roberts married Marvin Pittmon. The spelling of his surname in records is found as Pittman and Pittmon. Both Marvin and Geneva are buried in the High Cemetery under a headstone that reads Pittmon. The signature on Geneva's letter to Joe Bowlin appears to be Pittmon.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 22, 2019 12:36:04 GMT -5
oluckyman, Geneva Roberts Pittmon was a niece of Oliver P. Roberts. This is a transcription of her letter to Joe Bowlin:
"December 16, 1987
Dear Sir: the reason you are not finding my family is you don't have the right name. My grandfather was H.O. Roberts married to Shara (I think she meant Sarah) Elizabeth Ferguson on May 14, 1876. Oliver P. Roberts was Brushy Bill's name. I don't know what the P. was for. He was born August 26, 1879. I have the family Bible record. My husband thinks I should not tell you anything unless I know just what are your interests in my family? A William A. Tunstill P.O. Box 995 Roswell New Mex 88201 is also writing me asking questions which I have not written. He also has come up with a Ben Roberts as my great grandfather who was from (Kentucky?)and settled near Austin, 1835. I would also like for this to be settled as I know my uncle Oliver was not Billy the Kid.
Mrs. Geneva Pittmon"
Geneva was a niece of Oliver P. Roberts, and that is confirmed by census and other records. Geneva knew Brushy Bill's name was Oliver P. Roberts. Geneva knew that the birth date of Oliver P. Robert was 26 August 1879. Brushy Bill, after his marriage to Mollie Brown as Oliver Roberts, registered for the WWI draft as Oliver P. Roberts, born 26 August 1878. (If Brushy Bill had been born in 1859, he would not have been required to register for the draft.) Geneva had been contacted by William A. Tunstill, author of "Billy the Kid and Me Were The Same". Tunstill said Geneva's great-grandfather was Ben Roberts (not true). The claim was made in "Alias Billy the Kid" that Ben Roberts was the grandfather of Brushy Bill as shown in the bogus genealogy chart of William Henry Roberts on p. 90 of "The Return of the Outlaw, Billy the Kid".
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 21, 2019 10:01:24 GMT -5
I get nauseous reading the same old tired "presumptive" letter from Geneva Pittmon over and over and over and over again and again and again. The family bible lists the birth of an Oliver P. Roberts in 1879 because that's when Oliver P. Roberts was born. But Geneva could not have known for a fact that Brushy was that person since she wasn't even born when he stepped into that identity. HELLO! He had been identifying himself as her Uncle Oliver since "before she was born". As host of this message board I am requesting that you stop using that meaningless letter as evidence against Brushy. I'm not threatening anything, just requesting.
How about showing us a verifiable statement from one of Oliver's relatives that was alive before 1910 saying Brushy was the real Oliver? You won't find one. Ask yourself, why didn't anyone who could be a first hand witness to his true identity come forward and debunk his claim? To my knowledge they never did. I don't even know of any second hand hearsay that reports one of Brushy's older relatives denying that he could be Billy. There's Henry O helping Brushy file a fraudulent draft registration but that is not what I'm asking for. If you could show me where some interviewer or newspaper reporter or investigator asked one of the Roberts relatives who was around when Oliver was a child saying "no he could not be Billy The Kid because I've known him as Oliver since he was a child and that's who he is", then you'd have something to talk about. The only eyewitness identifications of his true identity that we have all said he was Billy The Kid.
If he really was Oliver P. Roberts then we would have grandchildren of the Roberts family alive today who could come forward and say "yes, I remember granddad talking about what an embarrassment it was for the family that Oliver made such a claim" or something to that affect. We don't even have anything from "any" Roberts descendants except that totally meaningless letter from Geneva Pittmon. I guess that's why you keep posting it ad nauseam.
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 21, 2019 10:25:34 GMT -5
Addendum to previous post. Regarding that draft registration. Wasn't it required at the time that the real Oliver P. Roberts go in and register? If Brushy had not gone in and registered as Oliver P then wouldn't they have come looking for Oliver for draft evasion? And wouldn't Brushy have known that not registering could mean him being discovered. What was he going to say when they came after him for draft evasion? No, you can't force me to register because I'm not really Oliver P. Roberts? He couldn't tell them that so he went in and registered. It doesn't prove he was really Oliver any more than Geneva's letter proves it.
There were two drafts held in 1918. The first was for men who had attained the age of 21 after June 5, 1917. The second was held on September 12, 1918 and was for all men ages 21 to 45. Oliver P. Roberts had to register and Brushy didn't want to get into trouble with the draft by not showing up. It could mean being discovered and having his death sentence carried out.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 21, 2019 13:45:27 GMT -5
Is the letter of Geneva Roberts Pittman, Oliver Roberts niece, off limits, because she explicitly stated that Oliver P. Roberts was Brushy Bill’s name?
“She could not have known that for a fact, because she wasn’t even born when he stepped into that identity.”
Oliver P Roberts was a resident of Van Zandt County in 1930. Geneva Roberts was a resident of Van Zandt County in 1930.
The assumption that Brushy Bill “stepped into” the identity of Oliver Pleasant Roberts is pure speculation driven by the necessity to keep the myth alive that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
There is no record that shows Oliver P Roberts died about 1911, or otherwise left Van Zandt County.
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 21, 2019 15:50:44 GMT -5
I don't believe Oliver P. Roberts was a resident of Van Zandt County in 1930. I believe William Henry Roberts was there living under the alias of Oliver P. Roberts. And there is no record that shows this to be incorrect. If there were any records to prove Brushy's true identity one way or the other then this debate would have been over a long, long time ago. But alas, it lives on as does Billy The Kid's legend. I find it interesting that you made no effort to prove me wrong about Geneva or the draft registration. Perhaps that is because you can't?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 21, 2019 20:33:21 GMT -5
I don't believe Oliver P. Roberts was a resident of Van Zandt County in 1930. I believe William Henry Roberts was there living under the alias of Oliver P. Roberts. And there is no record that shows this to be incorrect. If there were any records to prove Brushy's true identity one way or the other then this debate would have been over a long, long time ago. But alas, it lives on as does Billy The Kid's legend. I find it interesting that you made no effort to prove me wrong about Geneva or the draft registration. Perhaps that is because you can't? You are correct that more than one WWI draft age requirement was specified for registration. During World War I there were three registrations.
The first, on June 5, 1917, was for all men between the ages of 21 and 30. The second, on June 5, 1918, registered those who attained age 21 after June 5, 1917. A supplemental registration, included in the second registration, was held on August 24, 1918, for those becoming 21 years old after June 5, 1918. The third registration was held on September 12, 1918, for men age 18 through 45.
Oliver P Roberts was required to register in the third registration. His WWI registration card is dated 12 Sep 1918. Had Brushy been born in 1859, he would not have been required to register in any of the three registrations. The theory that Brushy Bill assumed the name of Oliver P Roberts to escape prosecution is a flimsy explanation. Nowhere, in any literature prior to "Alias Billy the Kid", is there any published reference or claim made that the real name of Billy the Kid was William Henry Roberts. Nowhere, in any literature, is there any claim that Billy the Kid lived in Van Zandt County. If Brushy's birth name was William Henry Roberts, there is no logical explanation for registered as Oliver Pleasant Roberts. There is no logical explanation for his his marriage to Mollie Brown as Oliver Roberts.
You must admit that Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry Oliver and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, did exist; did live in Hopkins County in 1900; lived in Van Zandt County in 1910; and that NO record of his death, burial, or removal from Van Zandt County about 1910 has ever been found. Forget the unmarked grave and other feeble explanations.
Has any credible record or evidence been found that supports even one of the many incredible events or exploits Brushy related that occurred prior to or after the Lincoln County events?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 22, 2019 12:37:42 GMT -5
"If he really was Oliver P. Roberts then we would have grandchildren of the Roberts family alive today who could come forward and say "yes, I remember granddad talking about what an embarrassment it was for the family that Oliver made such a claim" or something to that affect. We don't even have anything from "any" Roberts descendants except that totally meaningless letter from Geneva Pittmon. I guess that's why you keep posting it ad nauseam."
Wayne, Geneva Roberts Pittman was the niece of Oliver P Roberts. She said that Brushy was Oliver P Roberts. Brushy Bill said that Martha Heath was his cousin. Martha Roberts Heath was the half-sister of Oliver P Roberts. Brushy said Elizabeth Ferguson was his step-mother. Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson was the mother of Oliver P Roberts.
William A Tunstill, who believed Brushy Bill’s story, interviewed one of Brushy Bill’s cousins in her home. (p. 35, “Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”) She showed Mr. & Mrs. Tunstill a large picture of her grandmother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, hanging on her living room wall. Tunstill said, “I thought that was Brushy Bill’s mother.” “No, was her reply.” “I told her the same picture was illustrated on page 58 of Sonnichsen’s book, “Alias Billy the Kid”. “This is the only major mistake made in the entire book. I know, I checked every page and every line in the entire book.”
Paul Emerson, Martha Heath’s grandson, met Oliver Roberts. (p. 43, “Brushy Bill, Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale”. Excerpts from Paul’s letter to William A Tunstill, dated 2 August 1986.
“Dear Mr Tunstill, I have read your letters and the articles you have sent to my sister, Eulaine Haws, about Oliver (Brushy Bill) Roberts, who said he was Billy the Kid.” “I remember meeting Oliver Roberts, who was my grandmother’s brother, not too long before my grandmother died. She was Martha Vada Roberts Heath, and was my mother’s mother. Oliver came to see her in Jacksonville, Texas, and I met him. He was a “dikey” little man that paraded around in western clothes and cowboy boots, and said he was Billy the Kid.”
“To be honest, my grandmother did not believe he was Billy the Kid, and did not have confidence in what he said. She thought it was the imagination of his mind.”
“I am enclosing a copy of the newspaper clipping that I found in my mother’s papers after her death. on the back is a note written my my aunt Cora Heath, Martha Roberts Heath’s second oldest daughter. She said, ‘O. L. Roberts was my mother’s brother. He was around 75 years of age when he died, and he was not Billy the Kid.’”
“Sincerely yours, Paul Emerson, grandson of Martha Vada Roberts Heath”
It is impossible to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear, or to make an east Texas farmer into Billy the Kid.
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Post by lacowboy on Mar 22, 2019 13:13:27 GMT -5
"If he really was Oliver P. Roberts then we would have grandchildren of the Roberts family alive today who could come forward and say "yes, I remember granddad talking about what an embarrassment it was for the family that Oliver made such a claim" or something to that affect. We don't even have anything from "any" Roberts descendants except that totally meaningless letter from Geneva Pittmon. I guess that's why you keep posting it ad nauseam." Wayne, Geneva Roberts Pittman was the niece of Oliver P Roberts. She said that Brushy was Oliver P Roberts. Brushy Bill said that Martha Heath was his cousin. Martha Roberts Heath was the half-sister of Oliver P Roberts. Brushy said Elizabeth Ferguson was his step-mother. Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson was the mother of Oliver P Roberts. William A Tunstill, who believed Brushy Bill’s story, interviewed one of Brushy Bill’s cousins in her home. (p. 35, “Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”) She showed Mr. & Mrs. Tunstill a large picture of her grandmother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, hanging on her living room wall. Tunstill said, “I thought that was Brushy Bill’s mother.” “No, was her reply.” “I told her the same picture was illustrated on page 58 of Sonnichsen’s book, “Alias Billy the Kid”. “This is the only major mistake made in the entire book. I know, I checked every page and every line in the entire book.” Paul Emerson, Martha Heath’s grandson, met Oliver Roberts. (p. 43, “Brushy Bill, Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale”. Excerpts from Paul’s letter to William A Tunstill, dated 2 August 1986. “Dear Mr Tunstill, I have read your letters and the articles you have sent to my sister, Eulaine Haws, about Oliver (Brushy Bill) Roberts, who said he was Billy the Kid.” “I remember meeting Oliver Roberts, who was my grandmother’s brother, not too long before my grandmother died. She was Martha Vada Roberts Heath, and was my mother’s mother. Oliver came to see her in Jacksonville, Texas, and I met him. He was a “dikey” little man that paraded around in western clothes and cowboy boots, and said he was Billy the Kid.” “To be honest, my grandmother did not believe he was Billy the Kid, and did not have confidence in what he said. She thought it was the imagination of his mind.” “I am enclosing a copy of the newspaper clipping that I found in my mother’s papers after her death. on the back is a note written my my aunt Cora Heath, Martha Roberts Heath’s second oldest daughter. She said, ‘O. L. Roberts was my mother’s brother. He was around 75 years of age when he died, and he was not Billy the Kid.’” “Sincerely yours, Paul Emerson, grandson of Martha Vada Roberts Heath” It is impossible to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear, or to make an east Texas farmer into Billy the Kid. Jim you continue to call him Oliver P Robert's even when his own family refer to him as O.L.Roberts or Oliver L. Roberts. Sounds like they knew something you don't. 2 different names 2 different people or 2 different alias. Still sounds like Billy to me.
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 22, 2019 19:35:55 GMT -5
TTT,
Your long post did not provide any information I did not already know and did not challenge my previous statements regarding Geneva Pittmon or the Draft registration. Go back and read it again if you still don't understand.
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