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Post by MissyS on Sept 25, 2018 17:17:02 GMT -5
I agree Wayne, why would he take a chance trying to get a weapon from the deputy or one locked up in an armory when there was one there for the taken? He must not have went to get it or possibly Corbett hid it so well Billy couldn't find it?, but how well can one hide a gun in an outhouse?, most looked to have been made rather crude, and simple, four walls and a seat. There was no mention of the outhouse in the interview by Gauss either, the interview was ten years after, but Gauss was pretty much thorough with details.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 25, 2018 18:41:32 GMT -5
Maybe I am thinking of Alias Billy the Kid tho. I did mention my memory is flawed. I am going through all Sam Corbett stuff to see if I can find something. I have already come across a couple things about Gauss splitting the chain with an axe.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 25, 2018 18:59:09 GMT -5
I haven't found anything on Corbett saying anything about the gun. I'm probably wrong, but now I m convinced that this did happen at lunch and not supper. Sorry. Not trying to change the subject.
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Post by nmjames on Sept 25, 2018 21:13:15 GMT -5
You can find the story about Lucius Dills, page 392, Sam Corbet, page 394 - 395, Jose Aguayo and the privy page 394 in the book History of the Lincoln County War by Maurice G. Fulton. The story of the gun in the privy or outhouse was told to me when I was about eight years old by a Baca in Lincoln.
The time of day that Olinger took the other prisoners across the street was supper time or evening. This is in several of the newspapers and told by people that were there.
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Post by 1881- on Sept 26, 2018 7:30:21 GMT -5
Is it possible that they were on their way to the privy rather than returning from it? This scenario would almost necessitate Billy using Bell's gun. I seem to remember Brushy saying he fell down and the gun went off accidentally, but statements attributed to Billy indicate he shot Bell intentionally. Any thoughts?
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 26, 2018 16:12:48 GMT -5
Nmjames, can you or someone tell us more about what that book says about the privy? In Nolan's Reader book there is a book/article called Facts Regarding Billy the Kid by Leslie Traylor who did many interviews. He says that most people in Lincoln and many or all old timers including three he specifically named, he says they all say it happened at lunch and he was specifically addressing the controversy. This was 1935. I have a book by Utley where he says noon, and I think he says supper in Short and Violent Life book. Also I read an article that said Nolan has also went back and forth on it in his books. The Leslie book seems pretty legit to me. I hate to say it but the last sentence he sums up all the facts he gathered and the last thing he mentions is there is reason to believe Billy wasn't killed.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 26, 2018 16:18:19 GMT -5
I forgot, on the next page after Traylor mentions all of that he mentions a different person, a well known person who says that Kid met him that day at 2pm after his escape.
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Post by nmjames on Sept 26, 2018 20:46:28 GMT -5
McKinley:
Pat Garrett's book said Evening.
Lincoln County Leader 1 March, 1890: Godfrey Gauss in part of the story used dinner and later stated evening.
Escape of "the Kid by John P. Wilson there is a letter they feel that Sam Corbet wrote and it states: Dear Sir: Kid killed his guard, Bob Olinger and Deputy Sheriff J.W. Bell last night and made his espape. (Newman's Semi Weekly.
Elk City County Advocate, Ridgway, Penn, 19 May 181 Alinger had gone to supper leaving Bell to watch......
The Las Vegas Gazette, 3 May 1881: The Kid was held a prisoner in a house in Lincoln. Allwer at supper and bell was guarding him.
The Atchison Weekly Patriot, Kansas 14 May 1881 Olinger had gone to supper........
Las Vegas Gazette, 10 May 1881 The hand-cuffs had been taken from his left hand, to allow him to eat supper. (Billy)
Las Vegas Gazette, 3 May 1881: The Kid was held a prisoner in a house in Lincoln. All were at supper.
San Marcial, April 30 - The New Mexican has information that Billy the Kid escaped night before last.
These are just a few. I have one that is not handy that gives the time between 5 and 6 PM. Another one that states Billy left at dark.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 26, 2018 22:02:37 GMT -5
But Traylor named names. Newspapers are so wrong that it almost seems like they try to report stuff wrong. Or repeat what they heard. You haven't named any names. There are at least four people with names who says it was at lunch. Also, you agree that those are not Billy's Shackles and I think it is interesting that Brushy knew that... Without being able to research them...
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 26, 2018 22:14:58 GMT -5
Do you want to trust newspaper writer's or people that did real research?
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Post by nmjames on Sept 26, 2018 23:34:14 GMT -5
I don't have time because I will need to dig through my files but Gauss did write the article and was there. Garrett talked to the other prisoners as well as people that were in Lincoln that day and he came up with evening. Mr. Utley corrected things from his first book in the second book and said it was 6:00 PM. Nora Henn has it as dusk. I know there are articles with statements from other people Sam Corbet is said to have wrote the letter and you can find it on this site as it's been discussed before. Yes newspapers get some things wrong but I have always been told that it was in the evening. I will dig out my files and get you more on this.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 27, 2018 16:55:50 GMT -5
I'd love if you could post that article. I thought I had read something written by him or another interview besides the popular one. In Otero's book it has Gauss saying if he would have tried to hit the kid with the axe the kid would have shot him. I believe Gauss says that in Otero's book and maybe in They Knew Billy the Kid it is mentioned too. One or both it actually says he said that. I forget what Saga said he said if anything. I'm out of town so can't say for sure. I hope you find the Gauss article and share. Yours Respect, McKinney412
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Post by nmjames on Sept 28, 2018 0:56:23 GMT -5
McKinley,
I have the article but don't know about copyright. I also don't know how to post it. The article is by G. Gauss. He states he came out of his room behind the court house to smoke his pipe. He heard a shot fired, a tussle up stairs in the court house, somebody hurrying down stairs, and deputy sheriff Bell emerging from the door running toward him. He ran right into my arms, expired the same moment and I laid him down dead. Gauss ran to the garden gate leading to the street in front of the court house, I saw the other deputy sheriff, Olinger coming out of the hotel opposite, with the other four or five county prisoners where they had taken their dinner.
Olinger is killed and Gauss said he ran for his life to reach his room and safety. Billy the Kid called to him don't run, I wouldn't hurt you. Gauss then threw Billy a little prospecting pick and said Billy work on his chains for about an hour. He was only able to free one leg and tied the other chain to his waist belt.
Gauss talks about the horse and then states, and so Billy the Kid started out that evening.
I think people get the time mixed up because of the dinner part. I think Utley or Nolan states dinner in this part of the country is between 5:00 and 6:00 PM.
I have Mr. Nolan's reader and to me Mr. Traylor gets most of it wrong. If you have the book you can read it. I have been in the court house 100s of times and know how the stairs were in 1881. I don't agree with Mr. Traylor at all about where Bell was shot. He also states Bell and Olinger were buried behind the court house and later dug up and moved to Seven Rivers. This is not true. The bodies were place in the house behind the court house. Garrett did see them. Olinger was buried in Fort Stanton and Bell in White Oaks.
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 28, 2018 19:18:33 GMT -5
Thank you sir. Dinner in the olden days meant lunch. Supper was evening like The Last Supper. Gauss probably didn't want to have to explain how he ended up upstairs helping Billy. Just like Nunnelly was afraid about getting in more trouble for helping and he was eventually found not guilty of the crime he was held prisoner for. As always, your obedient servant, Yours Resect, McKinney412 alias McKinley412
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Post by mckinley412 on Sept 28, 2018 19:23:08 GMT -5
P.s. I changed my mind. I'd rather say: I wish everyone would Google fair use act and not worry about copyright stuff so much. Of course there are group rules which maybe could be amended slightly with a better understanding of the law way, I don't know. Did I say law way???
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