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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 16, 2018 18:23:09 GMT -5
It was easy for Brushy Bill to remember the names of his relatives.
Oliver P. Roberts created Brushy Bill’s family with familiar names from Oliver's family.
Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson was the mother of Oliver P. Roberts. In Brushy’s story, she became Elizabeth Ferguson, second wife of J. H. “Wild Henry” Roberts.
Henry Oliver Roberts was the father of Oliver P. Roberts. Henry was incorporated into the name of J. H. “Wild Henry” Roberts, father of William Henry Roberts in Brushy’s story.
Martha Vada Roberts Heath was a half-sister of Oliver P. Roberts. She became Martha Roberts Heath, cousin of William Henry Roberts.
Caroline Dunn, first wife of Henry Oliver Roberts and mother of Martha Vada Roberts, provided the surname for Willam Henry Roberts’ mother, Mary Adeline Dunn.
Oliver P. Roberts identified a cousin of William Henry Roberts, as Ollie Roberts, born about 1867. Ollie Roberts is a common nickname for Oliver.
Oliver P. Roberts changed his date of birth from 26 August 1879 (on Brushy Bill's WWI registration card) to one much easier for Brushy Bill to remember. Brushy had no problem remembering that he was born the last hour of the last day of 1859, 31 December 1859.
Oliver P. Roberts was Ollie Roberts, and also known as Brushy Bill Roberts. His death certificate recorded his birth year as 1868. His first cemetery marker also had a birth year of 1868.
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Post by sushiadam on Apr 16, 2018 19:00:36 GMT -5
Why would 1868 have been in the mix of dates if the real Oliver P.s life was so thoroughly documented?
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 16, 2018 20:48:42 GMT -5
I have a theory of course. Nothing to prove it, but I'll share it anyway. I've shared it before and had it ridiculed before but here goes again. Why not, you may find it entertaining.
My theory is that there were two Oliver Roberts's. The first was born Oliver L. Roberts, illegitimate around 1867-68 to a very young, pre teen, Elizabeth Ferguson. Maybe in an effort to protect Elizabeth's reputation, being pregnant at such a young age, the baby was shipped off to relatives and given a different name but the family remembered him as Oliver. It is possible. It was this Oliver that was killed in Indian territory and when his cousin, William Henry Roberts, alias Billy The Kid, returned to the Roberts family he decided to take the name and pretend to be the "hidden" Oliver L., partially because Elizabeth got the idea he was actually her long lost son she had not seen since he was a baby. The second Oliver, Oliver Pleasant Roberts was born in 1879 and after his embarrassing divorce from his first wife, he also disappeared. When registering for the WWI draft, Brushy/Billy/William did not want to be discovered as an impostor since there was no record of the first Oliver, born in 1868, so he gave Oliver Pleasant Roberts born 1879 as his identity. However he mostly continued calling himself Ollie L. Roberts born 1868. That is how his wife Melinda knew him and that is the info she gave for his death certificate and the birth date on his first tombstone.
All that is just a theory that, if correct, or close to correct explains the discrepancy over birth dates and where the 1868 date came from.
As for the similar names between Brushy's claimed lineage and that of the real Oliver P. Roberts, I also have a theory. The theory is that Brushy did not "remember" his own birth. Most of us don't. The only way he would have know who his real parents were is if his aunt, Catherine McCarty told him. Maybe "she" gave him some made up names, or maybe at age 90 he was confusing the birth parents/grandparents with the adopted parents/grandparents.
I know this is all quite a stretch, but I submit it is possibly close to the real truth.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 16, 2018 21:29:49 GMT -5
Oliver P. Roberts birth year is consistently recorded as 1879 +/-1 year in all census reports from 1880 through 1930, and his WWI registration card. Oliver P. Roberts was recorded as Ollie Roberts for the first time in the 1940 census, and his birth year was reported as about 1870. After the death of his wife, Loutecia Ballard in 1944, his name as informant appears as Ollie Roberts on her death certificate. Oliver P. Roberts said he was O. L. Roberts when he married Melinda Elizabeth Murrell Isaac in 1945.
“Why would 1868 have been in the mix of dates if the real Oliver P.’s life was so thoroughly documented?”
Short answer: Erroneous information, deliberately or otherwise, was provided in the 1940 census, death certificate, and initial cemetery.
See “Alias Billy the Kid”, Chapter 8: The Tangled Web, p.99
Paraphrased. Brushy wrote his story as he wanted it told; riding outlaw horses, frontier peace officer, horse thief association, soldiering, ranching, traveling rodeo show. HE MADE HIS AGE OUT AS 8 YEARS LESS THAN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IF HE HAD FOUGHT IN THE LINCOLN COUNTY WAR. That is about 1867=1859 + 8 There is nothing in Brushy Bill’s notes indicating he participated in the LCW.
It appears that later in life, Oliver P. Roberts and his friend, J. Frank Dalton, both decided to change their year of birth, and become renowned western characters. J. Frank Dalton signed an affidavit that he was Jesse Woodson James. Oliver P. Roberts met with the governor of New Mexico to validate his claim that he was BtK.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 16, 2018 23:26:34 GMT -5
“I have a theory of course.”
Problem 1 with the theory:
Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson was born 24 August 1856.
Cousin Ollie Roberts presumably was born 1867 or 1868, when Elizabeth would have been 12 or 13.
The 1900 census report shows that Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts was the mother of 10 children. That total included the 2 children of Caroline Dunn Roberts and the 8 identified children born to Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson.
The 1910 census reports shows that Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts was the mother of 8 children. Those 8 children have been identified in census and cemetery records.
The only Oliver Roberts in the household of Henry and Elizabeth Roberts was born in 1879.
Problem 2 with the theory:
Oliver P. Roberts was the son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson; was one of the children in their household in the 1880 and 1900 census; was a resident in the same county, Van Zandt, in the 1910 census; was a resident of the same town, Arkinda, in Little River County, AR, when he registered for the WWI draft. No evidence has been found that Oliver P. Roberts died or disappeared about 1911; no Texas death record; no cemetery marker.
Problem 3 with the theory:
The theory is that Brushy mostly called himself Ollie L. Roberts sometime after he assumed the identity of the son of Henry Oliver and Sarah Ferguson Roberts. Not true. Records show that Brushy Bill married Mollie Brown as Oliver Roberts in 1912; bought and sold land in Arkansas in 1918 as O. P. Roberts; registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts; was counted in the 1920 census in Van Zandt County, TX, as Oliver P. Roberts; and was counted in the 1930 census as Oliver Roberts. Finally, in the 1940 census, Brushy became Ollie Roberts; signed the death certificate of his wife Loutecia as Ollie Roberts in 1944; and married his last wife, Melinda E.”Lizzie” Allison, as O. L. Roberts. This would explain why Ollie L. Roberts was on Brushy’s initial cemetery marker and death certificate. Lizzie had no other information.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 17, 2018 9:10:51 GMT -5
OK. Let's answer that problem by problem.
Problem 1. It is entirely possible for a 12 or 13 year old girl to give birth. It was not uncommon in that era for girls of that age to be married even. And it wouldn't be surprising if a birth to an unmarried 12 or 13 year old would result in the baby being secreted away to be raised by older relatives and given a different name. In which case there would have been no record of Oliver L. on any census, ever. That doesn't mean other family members wouldn't have known about him, his new name, etc.
Problem 2. I didn't say Oliver P. Roberts died in 1911. If he just left town and changed his name, he absolutely could have just "disappeared" as in no later record of his existence being found on any census, or any death records, anywhere.
Problem 3. What I meant, should have said, was that at some point in the 1920's, Brushy stopped ever using the middle name "Pleasant". Sometimes he was Ollie, sometimes, Oliver, sometimes Oliver L. but never Oliver Pleasant. There has to be a reason for that.
My theory has no real evidence to back it up and I understand there won't likely be any discovered. It is simply an exercise in demonstrating how the birth date of 1868 and the introduction of the middle initial "L" could have happened. I will defend strongly though, that you can not shoot it down by just shouting "census, census, census" over and over ad nauseam. There are things that have happened in this world that are not recorded on any census or anywhere else for that matter. I've already proven that to you because you've not been able to find any information on my half aunt Elsie Bee. And I met the woman many times. I slept in her house. I know she existed and I know my grandparents tried to hide her. My father didn't even know he had a half sister until they were both married adults. Find her on the census. Go ahead and try. I gave you enough info to go on. About as much as we have on Oliver L. She was my father's half sister and her name was Elsie Bee. Good luck!
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 18, 2018 12:44:39 GMT -5
"I will defend strongly though, that you can not shoot it down by just shouting "census, census, census" over and over ad nauseam."
Census records are not perfect but very useful. Information in census, cemetery, and death records identify the names, birth and death dates of the 10 children of Henry Oliver Roberts; 2 by his first wife, Caroline Dunn, and 8 by his second wife, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson. Census records provide the location of Oliver P. Roberts at 10 year intervals from 1880 through 1940. For comparison, no records of any kind have been found supporting the incredible exploits of Brushy Bill.
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 18, 2018 12:44:45 GMT -5
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 22, 2018 0:36:06 GMT -5
It was easy for Brushy Bill to remember the names of his relatives. Oliver P. Roberts created Brushy Bill’s family with familiar names from Oliver's family. Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson was the mother of Oliver P. Roberts. In Brushy’s story, she became Elizabeth Ferguson, second wife of J. H. “Wild Henry” Roberts. Henry Oliver Roberts was the father of Oliver P. Roberts. Henry was incorporated into the name of J. H. “Wild Henry” Roberts, father of William Henry Roberts in Brushy’s story. Martha Vada Roberts Heath was a half-sister of Oliver P. Roberts. She became Martha Roberts Heath, cousin of William Henry Roberts. Caroline Dunn, first wife of Henry Oliver Roberts and mother of Martha Vada Roberts, provided the surname for Willam Henry Roberts’ mother, Mary Adeline Dunn. Oliver P. Roberts identified a cousin of William Henry Roberts, as Ollie Roberts, born about 1867. Ollie Roberts is a common nickname for Oliver. Oliver P. Roberts changed his date of birth from 26 August 1879 (on Brushy Bill's WWI registration card) to one much easier for Brushy Bill to remember. Brushy had no problem remembering that he was born the last hour of the last day of 1859, 31 December 1859. Oliver P. Roberts was Ollie Roberts, and also known as Brushy Bill Roberts. His death certificate recorded his birth year as 1868. His first cemetery marker also had a birth year of 1868. This is the worst thing I've seen you write so far. I've already shown there were other families with same names before. I used a different Francis Dunn with a different daughter Caroline Dunn. I've shown Oliver Roberts born on December 31 but a different year. But what you have wrote here is equivalent to people saying that Elvis's name spells the word Lives and if you add the letters up it equals something about something. Here is the post where you turned into the conspiracy nut and now you are becoming the conspiracy guy and everyone else is becoming normal. You are highlighting common names like Dunn and Henry like it means something. Where is Cooper or Johnson or Haws? If they are right about anything then why can't they discuss it with us??? |
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 22, 2018 18:46:54 GMT -5
Thain,
Good to hear from you.
"Where is Cooper or Johnson or Haws? If they are right about anything then why can't they discuss it with us???"
Maybe they are convinced, like most others, that the issue is settled and discussion is pointless. Billy the Kid was killed in 1881. Brushy Bill was Oliver Pleasant Roberts.
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