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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 27, 2018 20:59:25 GMT -5
"Question for you TTT. Do you believe Brushy had multiple scars on his body?"
I have no reason to doubt that a 71 year old man who had been on the rodeo circuit had multiple scars on his body. I have reason to doubt that anyone knew how many scars were on the body of Billy the Kid, their size, shape, and location.
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Post by wannabe12 on Mar 27, 2018 21:08:19 GMT -5
Wayne,
I would lean towards him not being put in jail. It had been so long since the crimes BTK was convicted of, and so much more information had come out about the real cause of trouble in Lincoln County in the late 1870's, that no one would be held accountable, not even Billy. Not sure I understand your post about the Officers horses?. The horses that were sent to Cuba with the Officers were mostly of good stock, and brought by the Officers with them when they volunteered. No reason for a Private to be put in charge of breaking them. I do believe Brushy may have had multiple scars on his body, but do you not think they may have come from him riding the rodeo circuit, and other physical work he may have done as an uneducated laborer??
It has been stated by many authors, which may have just been repeated, that Brushy used a dozen or more aliases during his life. Other than the ones we all know from the history of BTK in NM, and Oliver Roberts, which really hasnt been proven as an alias, do you know of any of the others, that can be show by documentation?? Even the affadavits that try to support Brushy only use these names, no others are mentioned. If he used others there has to be one somewhere??
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Mar 30, 2018 21:39:39 GMT -5
wannabe12, Brushy did not say he ever had an alias, only nicknames like "Hugo Kid" and "Texas Kid". Brushy said he married Mollie Brown. Since Van Zandt marriage records show that Mollie Brown married Oliver Roberts, some have assumed that Brushy Bill assumed the alias of Oliver Roberts, and Oliver Pleasant Roberts when he registered for the WWI draft. Some have assumed that Brushy Bill was in Lincoln County, NM, where Henry McCarty was known as Henry Antrim, Billy the Kid, Kid, and William Bonney.
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Post by ericbruce on Apr 4, 2018 13:19:49 GMT -5
God I'm happy I found this site. I felt like I was the only one who was really curious. It's awesome to have a place to discuss the old West. There's some amazing theories on here.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 4, 2018 15:43:13 GMT -5
ericbruce, Amazing theories, incredible stories, and a few facts. Authors Sonnichsen & Morrison, Hefner and Valdez, Jameson, Tunstill, Hall, and Edwards all hoped to find evidence that would support Brushy Bill's story.
Authors Johnson, Cooper, and Haws all found evidence that contradicts Brushy Bill's claim that he was Billy the Kid. All say he was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, the name Brushy Bill used when he registered for the WWI draft in Little River County, AR, 12 September 1918.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 6, 2018 17:17:51 GMT -5
ericbruce,
I'm happy you are enjoying the forum here. I think it makes sense that the majority of our 304 members seem to lean toward believing Brushy's claim, probably because those who believe it are more likely to be interested in finding proof. Those who disbelieve are more likely to feel none of it matters or is worth their time. So I'm also grateful to those members who help keep the discussion going by pointing out their observations that tend to negate Brushy's claim. I believe, to date, there has been no solid proof either way while others would say the proof is there and is obvious. Trying to resolve this can become addictive indeed. Yes, there are authors that support Brushy's claim and those who don't. Yes, Brushy registered for the WWI draft as "Oliver Pleasant Roberts". I do take issue with the idea that the pro-Brushy authors only "hoped" to find evidence. There is a huge amount of evidence supporting Brushy's claim and there is a large amount that would tend to disprove it. Unfortunately, when we focus on only one set of evidence, we can begin to believe we've found the proof. The proof has not been found. That's my view. Maybe you'll be the one to help us get closer to the truth.
I hope you continue to enjoy the discussion.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 7, 2018 16:39:21 GMT -5
“The biggest reason to believe Brushy was BTK "is" the fact that he said he was combined with the unlikelihood that an old man would put his life at risk by making such a claim unless there were some truth to it. “
The most convincing argument that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid was Brushy’s knowledge of events in Lincoln County. His knowledge was remarkably similar to information published in 1926, in “The Saga of Billy the Kid”.
Brushy Bill never put his life at risk. Brushy Bill had no reason to fear prosecution for the crimes of Billy the Kid. A defense attorney could have summoned Brushy Bill’s relatives to testify under oath that he was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born in 1879 in Arkansas. Three of Brushy Bill’s siblings were still living in 1950. Samantha Belle Roberts Arnold Chancellor, who died in 1956, was living in Okmulgee County, Oklahoma. Mary Cordelia Roberts Adams, who died in 1968, was living in McClain County, Oklahoma. Thomas U. Roberts, who died in 1958, was living in Van Zandt County, Texas. In addition to the 3 living siblings, Brushy Bill had at least 31 nieces and nephews who were still living in 1950.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 8, 2018 9:01:41 GMT -5
TTT,
It's nice to know where his relatives were living in 1950 and it's amazing that you are able to say exactly what they would have testified to if they'd been called. Now let's assume for a moment that you are correct about what they would have said, although we don't really know. Brushy could have then been in legal jeopardy for having perpetrated the hoax. Either way, BTK or not, to make such a fraudulent claim was not free of risk.
Also, any testimony from anyone suggesting he was not BTK would have to be weighed against testimony that he was actually Billy.
In my view, none of that changes my premise you quoted above. Why? Because he had no reason to make the claim unless he wanted to be believed. Unless he wanted to be legally accepted as the real BTK. Consequently, any such legal decision would have also put him at "risk" of going to jail or even having the death sentence carried out and if he was indeed a fraud, I don't believe he would have taken such a risk. If he thought he wasn't in legal jeopardy because he could always turn around and admit he was a fraud and provide relatives who would swear to that, then why the stroke while he was at the Governor's mansion? I've always believed, as most do, that he had the stroke because he was frightened by the presence of armed guards.
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Post by wannabe12 on Apr 8, 2018 12:47:13 GMT -5
Wayne,
I'm not a medical professional or expert on the human body by any means, but anyone of my relatives that has had a stroke has had it building for years. It is not due to any one stressful episode, it is a long line of health issue that contribute to that stroke. I believe it was said that he may have had a stroke, but it wasnt written in the definite. No real way to know since symptoms of heart attacks and strokes tend to subside or be hidden once the body recovers itself somewhat, im going to lean towards him not having a stroke, since he was up and about in a week or two and died on his way to the post office.
As for his being able to come forward with his appeal in the knowledge he would have been charged with making a false claim, had he been found to be a fraud. You have to think about the times in which he lived, as you do the times when Billy lived. I doubt anybody would have held it against an elderly man for telling a tale. At the time of Billy's death he was not the legend he would become. He did not garner front page headlines all over the world, or the US for that matter. The day his death was reported he only got a paragraph maybe two in newspapers that were close to New Mexico. In 1950 he had been all but forgotten, except to people that had an interest in the west, it's the same today, the number of people who care about the history of this country is shrinking, so a small piece of time in one corner of the country has become important to even fewer people, than it was when Brushy was alive. Although the number of people that believe Brushy has grown, at the time of his death not many did. At one time when asked, the Mayor of Hamilton said they allowed him to be buried there because Hico could not afford to, not because they believed his story and wanted him there.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 8, 2018 16:41:19 GMT -5
wannabe12,
I'm no medical expert either, but I do believe a medical condition, whether stroke or heart attack, that has been building over time can be triggered by a traumatic experience. In discussing the possibility he could have been in legal jeopardy for making a false claim, I am referring to the suggestion there might have been a new trial in which siblings of Oliver P. Roberts would have been brought in to confirm his true identity and get him off the hook. This would only have happened if the Governor had accepted him as the real BTK and for some reason a new trial had been carried out. In which case the state would have gone to considerable expense over this and I don't think they would have just said, "big deal, he's just an old man with a tale". I think he would have been fined at least.
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 12, 2018 17:08:16 GMT -5
I haven't read the whole thread but I do want to comment on a couple things I saw on this page of it. TTT, Brushy did say in Walker's book that Billie Cramer and the name Bonney were aliases he used. Also, I'd like to challenge the argument that Johnson, Cooper, or Haws found evidence against him. Their ideas aren't really founded in research, knowledge, logic, or those type of things when it comes to Brushy. If anyone thinks those authors brought up a valid argument then feel free to ask me about the details.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 12, 2018 22:28:02 GMT -5
"Their ideas aren't really founded in research, knowledge, logic, or those type of things when it comes to Brushy." Research, knowledge, or logic is not possible since the story told by Brushy Bill was based on imagination, not facts. There is a documented record of Oliver P. Roberts from his birth in 1879 in Sebastian County, AR, until his death in 1950 in Hico, TX.
Thain, We know Brushy Bill said he was born near Buffalo Gap, an uninhabited area, to parents whose existence has never been confirmed, and that he was never known by his real name, always by an alias. We know Brushy Bill was very familiar with the details of the Lincoln County area as described by Walter Noble Burns in his 1926 book, “The Saga of Billy the Kid”. We know that there is no official record of Brushy Bill Roberts or William Henry Roberts. We know that Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown, Louticia Ballard, and Melinda Allison, but he married Mollie Brown as Oliver Roberts. Even the name on his death certificate is Ollie L. Roberts, not William Henry Roberts.
We know that Oliver P. Roberts was born in Sebastian County, AR, in 1859 to Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson. We know that O. P. Roberts married Anna Lee in Van Zandt County in 1909 and divorced her in 1910; Oliver Roberts married Mollie Brown in Van Zandt County in 1912; registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts with a birth date of 26 August 1878; bought and sold land in Sevier County, AR, in 1918 as O. P. Roberts.
We know that Martha Heath was not Brushy Bill’s cousin. Martha Vada Roberts Heath was the half-sister of Oliver P. Roberts.
I have not seen credible evidence or verifiable evidence that supports any supposed activities of Brushy Bill Roberts prior to, or after, the Lincoln County war.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Apr 13, 2018 8:58:40 GMT -5
"We know that Oliver P. Roberts was born in Sebastian County, AR, in 1859 to Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson."
Typo correction: "We know that Oliver P. Roberts was born in Sebastian County, AR, in 1879 to Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson."
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Post by clydec on Apr 13, 2018 10:26:27 GMT -5
You had the year right the first time TTT.
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 18, 2018 12:01:32 GMT -5
Thain, We know Brushy Bill said he was born near Buffalo Gap, an uninhabited area, to parents whose existence has never been confirmed, and that he was never known by his real name, always by an alias. We know Brushy Bill was very familiar with the details of the Lincoln County area as described by Walter Noble Burns in his 1926 book, “The Saga of Billy the Kid”. We know that there is no official record of Brushy Bill Roberts or William Henry Roberts. We know that Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown, Louticia Ballard, and Melinda Allison, but he married Mollie Brown as Oliver Roberts. Even the name on his death certificate is Ollie L. Roberts, not William Henry Roberts. We know that Oliver P. Roberts was born in Sebastian County, AR, in 1859 to Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson. We know that O. P. Roberts married Anna Lee in Van Zandt County in 1909 and divorced her in 1910; Oliver Roberts married Mollie Brown in Van Zandt County in 1912; registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts with a birth date of 26 August 1878; bought and sold land in Sevier County, AR, in 1918 as O. P. Roberts. We know that Martha Heath was not Brushy Bill’s cousin. Martha Vada Roberts Heath was the half-sister of Oliver P. Roberts. I have not seen credible evidence or verifiable evidence that supports any supposed activities of Brushy Bill Roberts prior to, or after, the Lincoln County war. Texas Truth Teller, nice to be talking with you again. I'll respond to some of your post: Buffalo Gap was inhabited back then as far as I know. * I'm not discussing Saga with you anymore, because it's going in your one ear and out the other.* He did marry Louticia as Oliver Roberts also, there is more then one record, her name is spelled differently in both. *Next I see, even you are starting to admit he was born in 1859. haha. *I'm not sure we can say that it was him who married Anna Lee but it is likely and I know he said he was somewhere else, etc but he always gets dates wrong anyway, a good example is on the voice recording of him. *YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT MARTHA WASN'T HIS COUSIN. You do know it was Oliver's sister. *There is evidence of his activities, many of the events he talked about before and after did happen almost as if he was there. We just can't prove he was there. Just like you can't prove if Billy the Kid was in Maxwell's house that night. * But at least you always bring up real stuff 50% of the time because many authors are bringing up all kinds of crazy stuff. Sometimes the Brushy authors are just as bad, no offense Brushy authors, but you are. I just don't critique them as much. But I do. And might start doing it more. I want all the books to be held to a high standard but I don't want to discourage anyone from writing a book or I will have nothing else to read. So long, adios, Texas Truth Teller. You know I like to speak my mind but that's just because I ride a fast horse.
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