Photo of JWJ, BTK, DOC, and Charlie Bowdre

[manhunter]

I came across this photo on another Jesse James forum (credit Greg Ellison Collection, JJ Photo Discussion Forum, Delphi Forums).  It is framed and hanging in the Plaza Hotel, Las Vegas, New Mexico.

Not sure if any of you had seen it or not.  If this is old news, then I apologize.  From left to right are Billy the Kid, Doc Holiday, Jesse James, and Charlie Bowdre.

Enjoy!!!

[clydec]

Not likely!

[manhunter]

To clarify, those are their names according to the other web site and the poster. I have no provenance or proof either way to substantiate their identities.

[clydec]

Well, manhunter, just to the untrained eye and from seeing pictures of the real people purported to be in this photo, none of them is who it is stated they are. Billy the Kid did know the James boys, but I doubt he knew Doc Holiday very well. Also, from the pictures I have seen of Jesse James, he was much taller than the man shown in this photo.

[manhunter]

Clydec,

I appreciate the input and do not disagree with you - I posted the photo to solicit opinions and debate. I also feel the one identified as JWJ is slightly shorter than other known photos. I do believe Doc Holiday spent some time in Lincoln County so he may have run across BTK. The photo of Doc appears to be him based on comparison to other known photos of him. Bowdre in this photo resembles and looks like other known photos of him.

Thanks for the response.

[manhunter]

Oct 15, 2017 19:44:58 GMT -5 clydec said:

Well, manhunter, just to the untrained eye and from seeing pictures of the real people purported to be in this photo, none of them is who it is stated they are. Billy the Kid did know the James boys, but I doubt he knew Doc Holiday very well. Also, from the pictures I have seen of Jesse James, he was much taller than the man shown in this photo.

Just an FYI though, I’m not looking at these with an untrained eye. I spent 25 years chasing bad guys and outlaws, to include conducting hundreds of photo comparisons. I’m a retired United States Marshal - hence the user name “manhunter”.

[Texas Truth Teller]

Manhunter.
There are opportunists who post photographs on the internet, claiming they are well known western characters.

This is one man's opinion of Ellison's collection that is posted on the internet:

"I have never in my born days come across a website so full of rampant speculation, guesses, leaps to a multitude of conclusions, and plain out BS as www.theellisoncollection.com . Look at his Todd image. He offers his OPINION and a 'comparison" image he lifted from Cowan's auctions! And the fool puts a silly copyright symbol on the Cowan image! His provenance seems to be "I found it in a box at a flea market" and it would seem that he got several different noted historical personages in that ONE box, quite a treasure trove eh? People just find boxes of multiple 'lost' historical people every day! THen you look at his other images. My goodness but this guy Greg Ellison is a megaconartist! He borrows links to real websites to try to bolster his unresearched and factually incorrect 'opinions.' He also steals 'comparison' images from legitimate historical sites but I never see ANY legitimate or otherwise historical site linked to The Ellison Collection. It is easy to see why as this site is a complete joke and after reading the postis in this thread I would have to say run by a total idiot. He uses a VERY suspicious four sentence note as a 'verification' from Phillip W. Steele. As I have seen verifications done by Steele, John Sexton, Shannon Pritchard, Steve Mullinax, Christys, Southebys, and many other legitimate sources, I see this letter as a very obviosu phoney. Where are all of the notes and remarks on each individual photograph? Where are the witness signatures? Where is the notary stamp? For a 25 photo verification I would expect a MINIMUM of 30 to 50 PAGES with detailed notes and observations as well as different photographs of each image. This 'Steele" note is the silliest thing I have ever seen to call provenance. Greg Ellison has claimed on his website to have a photograph of George Dixon, Captain of the CSS Hunley, but he claims here on Topix and in an interview with the Charleston Post and Currier that it is his OPINION of who the image is. OPINION with zero research, proof, provenenace, NOTHING. I challenge Greg Ellison and The Ellison Collection to find 3 LEGITIMATE, RECOGNIZED experts in ANY area of photographs to verify ANY of his fraudulent images. I challenge Greg Ellison and The Ellison Collection to provide ONE LINK made FROM a legitimate historical website to The Ellison Collection. JUST ONE! Name anyone noted outside the fake Steele letter that believes ONE WORD on this website! He cannot do it! HE has his opinions, other peoples images, and a pile of plain images of plain people and that is it! Pathetic! "

[mckinley412]

That photo reminds me of the Little Rascals, or Apple Dumpling Gang, or Three Stooges. Because there was actually four Stooges. Anybody want to buy my Avatar pic? It's a cabinet card. Early 1880's.

[manhunter]

TTT,

Thanks for the insight on Ellison. This was my first time to run across his collection on-line, and I guess was wondering why some of his photos, that seemed too incredible to have not been on this one yet, is why I posted it - NOW I KNOW WHY.

[flugelblue]

New Photo: "Billy McCarty at Fort Sumner" Re: Paulita's Description of Billy 

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[flugelblue]

May 29, 2018 13:27:08 GMT -5 flugelblue said:

New Photo: "BILLY McCARTY AT FORT SUMNER" Re: Paulita's Description of Billy.. in the Garrett Tintype: "I never liked the picture. I don't think it does Billy Justice. It makes him look rough and uncouth. The expression of his face was really boyish and very pleasant. He may have worn such clothes as appear in the picture out on the range, but in Fort Sumner he was careful of his personal appearance, and dressed neatly and in good taste" -PAULITA MAXWELL -from an interview with author WALTER NOBLE BURNS. *Image Credit: "Brownie's Long Lost Images"

[mckinley412]

I think that guy as facial hair. Billy was said to only have peach fuzz on his lip. I don't know but here his a comparison to go with that first photo.

[flugelblue]

"Peach Fuzz?" -Sure, Thain -most boys have at least that on their lip. I guess you can see that fuzz on my Avitar Photo which might well be a much earlier photo of Billy The Kid than mine. I don't own this, because I fell asleep in my chair while waiting to bid on it awhile back.. but make no mistake, I do believe it Is Billy. Yeah, I believe that this "Avitar Boy" is a younger tintype photograph of my Billy The Kid tintype. -So to be consistent, I'll post the whole image, in context which includes the Paper Mat. As to these 2 photos you posted above.. I thought you knew that neither image has any Resemblance to the Actual People named. *Here's some good clips of Billy, Catherine & Michael from that Graham Nash Dag..   -Cheers -Plugelblue!

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[mckinley412]

Billy was a 21 year old man (or thereabout) with peach fuzz. Not a boy. I know the photos I posted don't match the people named. But I found that other photo that is similar so I thought it may be of interest to someone.

[flugelblue]

Here are 2 afore-mentioned Michael Patrick McCarty images.. 1 Museum Portrait as a Daguerreian Artist -& a Last Tintype of him, from Brownie's Lot, likely taken just prior to his early death. *Note his "wardrobe preference" for a button-down Sweater. Perhaps Billy inherited his dad's Sweaters? (Seems more than likely to me ;~)
Flugelblue