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Post by mckinley412 on Jun 17, 2017 20:53:23 GMT -5
I'm reading Miguel Otero's jr's The Real Billy the Kid. I forget who asked but it does indeed contain an interview with Lobato saying he was there that night. And Pat said he was there. And Silva says he was there. So I wonder why he would change his story in another interview and say he wasn't. Many people argue that Brushy was wrong about him being there and they use it as a major flaw in his story to discredit him. Sad.
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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 15, 2017 16:55:01 GMT -5
P.s. Morrison put in one of his documents that Fred Waite helped Brushy escape. I'm glad I remembered because I forgot to jot that down the other day. They tried to find him so that he could be a witness for Brushy at his hearing!
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Post by susan on Oct 16, 2017 9:05:48 GMT -5
Which escape are you talking about?
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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 16, 2017 18:13:34 GMT -5
Escape from Fort Sumner. Morrison also said Brushy owned a photo of Fred Waite.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 22, 2017 21:24:19 GMT -5
Thain
Fred Waite died Sept. 24, 1895 and is buried in Pauls Valley, Oklahoma. There was no way that Morrison could have found him.
As to Fred Waite, I think Brushy used the Book: The Saga of Billy the Kid by Walter Noble Burns to make up his story about the killing of Brady. If you have Morrison's book from 1955, you can go to page 27 and read what Brusy had to say. They even spelled Fred's last name as Wayte. Brushy has Fred Wayte going out into the street with him to get the guns off of Brady. Brushy states he was shot by Matthews and that it tore the flesh above my right hip and clipped Wayte through the leg. The newspapers of 1878 say it was Jim French and most of the people that was there that day say Billy was shot inside the left thigh. I don't feel that Jim French went out with Billy. I feel Billy was the only one that went out to get the rifle from Brady and was shot on the inside of the left thigh. I feel from research that Jim French was hit down the street as he and the others were riding out of town by J. Long. One newspaper article I have from 1878 states that When Brady fell, he dropped his rifle. Antrim ran out to secure it and was fired upon by Matthews and wounded. Later in the same article it states, Their man Jim French was badly wounded. Another newspaper I have from 1878 states that Antrim, the "Kid" and Jim French, of Brewer's party, wounded.
I think you said you have Burns book. You can look on pages 105 - 107 and see that what Brushy had to say was like what is said in Burns book.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 22, 2017 22:43:44 GMT -5
NMjames,
From Morrison's notes:
"Do you know why they think Billy the Kid was born in New York?"
*Yes, because I first told them that in that country up there when I went up there in New Mexico. That's the reason they think it, yes."
"You told them that you were born in New York?"
"Yes, and that I came with Mrs. Antrim."
Both "The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid", and "The Saga of Billy the Kid" stated, without proof, that Billy the Kid was born in New York City.
Both "The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid", and "The Saga of Billy the Kid" stated, without proof, that the mother of Billy the Kid married Antrim BEFORE the family arrived in New Mexico.
Certainly appears as if Brushy Bill could have read one or both of those books.
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Post by clydec on Oct 23, 2017 5:40:47 GMT -5
Yes TTT he could have, but he also states that he lied about being from New York and that his Aunt Catherine McCarthy came down from Indian territory to get him when his mother died. If he were a faker, why would he not stick to the books that were written like many other fakers have done before? Brushy for the most part goes against the written history of the kid which are mostly lies anyway, and that to me makes his story more believable.
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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 25, 2017 16:36:49 GMT -5
TTT, it appears he wasn't going by those books. I'm have no idea why you think his story sounds like the other two books, he said he lied to them. He didn't say she got married before she came to New Mexico. He knew her as Antrim so that's what he calls her. Nolan has even questioned if the Henry and Josie is Billy or Joseph but that's neither here nor there.
NmJames, I wish you would write an article on the Wayte, French controversy and publish it or at least post one here. Make no mistake, I'm for Billy all the way, with or without Brushy. The misspelling of Wayte would not hurt Brushy's case, it would help it. It means the authors were not experts and were relying on Brushy's testimony and indeed I believe they may have got spellings from SAGA,---they refer to Catherine as a Bonney when Brushy never did. I am familiar with SAGA and indeed there are similarities because both SAGA and Brushy got certain things right, but the difference is that SAGA made MANY errors but Brushy did not.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 25, 2017 19:48:20 GMT -5
Thain,
I hate to write but love doing research. Last year in August, I went to Pauls Valley, Oklahoma and found out a lot of new information on Fred Waite. I use to have a lot of family in and around Pauls Valley but had not been there since I was 15 years old. I went by and paid my respect to Fred Waite and took some pictures. I agree that I do need to share some of what I found out. Some day I might.
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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 28, 2017 16:43:34 GMT -5
One thing I have to add, because someone hit like on a comment so I saw the post again. I want to add here and there again that Brushy did not say Catherine's name was Bonney. He doesn't talk about it in Sonncihsen's but in a book about J. Frank Dalton that is somewhat rare he says the name Bonney was given to him by Jesse and Belle so that the Rangers and his dad wouldn't find him. He took a remarkable leap of faith by saying this as most believed Bonney was a family name and still 70 years later with all the pain staking research that has gone into proving it was a family name-----Nothing. ....however I believe he just knew the truth.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Nov 13, 2017 22:33:13 GMT -5
"Brushy for the most part goes against the written history of the kid WHICH ARE MOSTLY LIES anyway, and that to me makes his story more believable. "
Clydec,
Every book about Billy the Kid and Brushy Bill includes incorrect information, and several of them may contain a few lies.
This is one definition of a lie:
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
If the truth is known, and a false statement is made to deceive, that is a lie.
If the truth is not known, incorrect information can be attributed to ignorance, incorrect assumptions, poor research, or quotes from previously published unverified information.
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