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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 21:40:56 GMT -5
Hi TTT, I must confess straight up that I'm no expert on Billy the kid. Daniel's book just revealed alot that I personally didn't know and it changed my perception and opinion. I've read all your posts on this site and I was originally on your side. All the books I've read about Billy are so different that it's really hard for a new BTK fan like myself to know who's story to trust and what to believe. I probably shouldn't have got involved in the discussion because I'm definitely out of my league here. I really enjoy reading everyone's posts on this site. The only thing I can really add to this debate is that after my recent experience with my girlfriends passport application I'm really beginning to trust these historical records less and less. Did Daniel's book reveal anything new? Probably not but it changed my world personally. TTT your research skills and are amazing and second to none. I think it's just hard for me to put all my faith into believing all historical written records as fact. I do now believe Brushy truely was BTK but I will keep an open mind and look forward to many more years reading posts on this forum.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 11, 2020 13:49:14 GMT -5
Hi TTT, I must confess straight up that I'm no expert on Billy the kid. Daniel's book just revealed alot that I personally didn't know and it changed my perception and opinion. I've read all your posts on this site and I was originally on your side. All the books I've read about Billy are so different that it's really hard for a new BTK fan like myself to know who's story to trust and what to believe. I probably shouldn't have got involved in the discussion because I'm definitely out of my league here. I really enjoy reading everyone's posts on this site. The only thing I can really add to this debate is that after my recent experience with my girlfriends passport application I'm really beginning to trust these historical records less and less. Did Daniel's book reveal anything new? Probably not but it changed my world personally. TTT your research skills and are amazing and second to none. I think it's just hard for me to put all my faith into believing all historical written records as fact. I do now believe Brushy truely was BTK but I will keep an open mind and look forward to many more years reading posts on this forum. danjohn81, Thanks for the kind words, and open mind. I am not a Billy the Kid expert. Discussions on this board focus primarily on 3 characters identified as Billy the Kid, Oliver P Roberts, and Brushy Bill. Two are real. Information may be fact, credible, probable, hearsay, or false. There are few indisputable facts regarding Billy the Kid: participated in the Lincoln County War; sentenced to death; escaped from prison; coroners jury convened after his reported death. Credible evidence: witnessed marriage of William Antrim and Catherine McCarty; had brother named Joseph. Probable evidence: born in New York City, inferred from pension application of William Antrim; lived in Sedgwick County, Kansas, inferred from land records show both William Antrim and Catherine McCarty owned property in the early 1870s.
There are records that prove Oliver P Roberts was the son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson (Brushy chose Elizabeth Ferguson for the name of his step-mother and 2nd wife of his supposed father, J H Roberts); his approximate age; and that he married Anna Lee, Mollie Brown, Lutecia Ballard, and Lizzie Allison; had a half-sister Martha that married Dudley Heath (whose mother was Caroline DUNN, the same surname that Brushy chose for his supposed mother Mary Adeline DUNN) ;
No record or credible evidence has ever been found to support any event or relative named in Brushy Bill’s story. Brushy’s most convincing story was his description of Lincoln County events and characters that closely correspond to those found in “The Saga of Billy the Kid”, published in 1926, the probable source of his knowledge about the Lincoln County War.
Conclusions drawn from photo analysis or comparisons are opinions, not fact.
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Post by kerry on Aug 11, 2020 15:28:34 GMT -5
BTK's escape from Lincoln County jail was about where the indisputable evidence ended....who shot who - Coroner's verdict(s) -conflicting and changing accounts -intense and agonising scrutiny of ancestry and census records -to me all have less credence than Brushy's story some of which he may not have revealed prior to a pardon to protect others...
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 11, 2020 18:22:15 GMT -5
BTK's escape from Lincoln County jail was about where the indisputable evidence ended....who shot who - Coroner's verdict(s) -conflicting and changing accounts -intense and agonising scrutiny of ancestry and census records -to me all have less credence than Brushy's story some of which he may not have revealed prior to a pardon to protect others... That is true. Skeptics question the findings of the coroners jury, although there is no credible evidence to the contrary. Skeptics also accept Brushy's story that he was Billy the Kid, even though no supporting evidence has been found.
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Post by kerry on Aug 12, 2020 0:13:12 GMT -5
As a skeptic --I don't believe BTK rode off the range for a one and only photo shoot outside Beaver Smith's saloon...I believe those boys couldn't get enough of the camera...whether at a wedding -a funeral (playing croquet) -campaignig for their buddy to be Sherriff of Lincoln -or just playing cards in th bunkhouse...for every photo that may come to light -there will be 4 lost forever...BTK was much loved.
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Post by 45Colt on Nov 5, 2020 10:07:58 GMT -5
Severo Gallegos, who knew Billy the Kid and helped him escape from the Lincoln County Jail, signed a sworn affidavit that Brushy Bill Roberts was Billy the Kid. Morrison stayed in touch with Severo afterwards, sent Christmas greetings, etc. Those that say "there is no evidence" don't understand the meaning of "evidence". Also, Oliver Roberts was a real person, with real parents. He was also a victim of identity theft after he died and the identity thief that took his identity was Brushy Bill Roberts. You can "prove" Oliver Roberts was born to his parents. What does that have to do with the imposter who claimed to be him? Nothing at all. Why do detractors keep hammering this point like it means something? It doesn't. Oliver Roberts birth date is irrelevant. You would have to prove that Brushy didn't steal his identity, which is impossible because you can't prove a negative. Then there is the claim that "his own family" knew he wasn't Billy the Kid. Not true. Some of them DID believe he was not Oliver Roberts and WAS Billy the Kid but neither side has primary evidence of this. Stop. Just stop with the misrepresentations. Morrison had a valid legal case with solid, court appropriate evidence. History is on his and Brushy's side. Even the CSI done at the Lincoln Courthouse, which was done by detectives that DID NOT at the time believe in Brushy, have turned up new evidence that supports his claims. Read "The Dirty on Billy the Kid" by Steve Sederwall.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Nov 5, 2020 17:00:59 GMT -5
Severo Gallegos, who knew Billy the Kid and helped him escape from the Lincoln County Jail, signed a sworn affidavit that Brushy Bill Roberts was Billy the Kid. Morrison stayed in touch with Severo afterwards, sent Christmas greetings, etc. Those that say "there is no evidence" don't understand the meaning of "evidence". Also, Oliver Roberts was a real person, with real parents. He was also a victim of identity theft after he died and the identity thief that took his identity was Brushy Bill Roberts. You can "prove" Oliver Roberts was born to his parents. What does that have to do with the imposter who claimed to be him? Nothing at all. Why do detractors keep hammering this point like it means something? It doesn't. Oliver Roberts birth date is irrelevant. You would have to prove that Brushy didn't steal his identity, which is impossible because you can't prove a negative. Then there is the claim that "his own family" knew he wasn't Billy the Kid. Not true. Some of them DID believe he was not Oliver Roberts and WAS Billy the Kid but neither side has primary evidence of this. Stop. Just stop with the misrepresentations. Morrison had a valid legal case with solid, court appropriate evidence. History is on his and Brushy's side. Even the CSI done at the Lincoln Courthouse, which was done by detectives that DID NOT at the time believe in Brushy, have turned up new evidence that supports his claims. Read "The Dirty on Billy the Kid" by Steve Sederwall. Oliver P Roberts was a real person. Billy the Kid was a real person. That much you got right. These are the facts: Oliver Roberts married Mollie Brown. Brushy Bill registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, with a birth date of 26 October 1879, and said his nearest relative was Mollie Roberts. (Men born in 1859 were not required to register for the draft, but those born in 1879 were required to register.) Brushy Bill Roberts and his parents, Henry Oliver and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts were in Little River County, Arkansas, when he registered for the draft. Brushy Bill never said that he assumed the alias of Oliver Roberts. That claim was fabricated by skeptics to perpetuate the myth that Brushy Bill could have been Billy the Kid. No evidence has been found that Oliver P Roberts died or otherwise departed Van Zandt County. He was not dead, so Brushy could not have assumed his identity. No, I cannot prove a negative, but there is absolutely no evidence that supports the skeptics claim that Brushy Bill assumed the alias of Oliver P Roberts. None. Conversely, there is ample evidence that Oliver P Roberts remained in Van Zandt County after marrying and divorcing Anna Lee in 1910. He married Mollie Brown in 1912 as Oliver Roberts. He returned to VanZandt County after Mollie's death. Brushy Bill married Lutecia Ballard, and she died in Van Zandt County.
It is extremely difficult to justify William Henry Roberts/Brushy Bill Roberts' need for an alias to avoid the law. Had anyone ever heard of William Henry Roberts as a possible alias of Billy the Kid? Didn't published articles and literature refer to Billy the Kid as Antrim, Bonney, McCarty, or McCarthy?
History, and historians, agree that Billy the Kid was killed in New Mexico. Skeptics cling to the improbable and unsubstantiated tale told by an old man pretending he was Billy the Kid.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2020 19:58:53 GMT -5
I'm currently leaning towards Brushy being Billy the kid but I am starting question why all the people uncovering new evidence won't reveal their findings until their book is published. This forum is the first place I personally would reveal my new information to.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2020 20:36:24 GMT -5
Just about everyone who visits this forum is here for the love of it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing a book about Billy the kid and earning money for all the hard work and research but I feel that once someone finds new evidence but is holding out on revealing it to hopefully sell more books then they've officially crossed over to the dark side. If I discovered something new I would reveal it first and write the book later. People will still buy the book. I just feel that any person that makes a new discovery owes it to the world to reveal it first and worry about book sales later. I think Daniel Edwards revealed some of his findings on this forum before his book was published? If that is true then I admire him for doing that.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Nov 5, 2020 22:54:22 GMT -5
Just about everyone who visits this forum is here for the love of it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing a book about Billy the kid and earning money for all the hard work and research but I feel that once someone finds new evidence but is holding out on revealing it to hopefully sell more books then they've officially crossed over to the dark side. If I discovered something new I would reveal it first and write the book later. People will still buy the book. I just feel that any person that makes a new discovery owes it to the world to reveal it first and worry about book sales later. I think Daniel Edwards revealed some of his findings on this forum before his book was published? If that is true then I admire him for doing that. Dan did reveal his findings on this forum. Were those findings assumptions, opinions, or new facts?
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45colt
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Post by 45colt on Nov 6, 2020 9:17:31 GMT -5
Hey all- sorry, I couldn't remember my login so I'm 45Colt now. Wayne, if you can let me know my other credentials I'll stop using this handle and use my old one. Anyway, yes, I did reveal my findings on this forum and I'm a big fan of it. That said, if we are to compete in the arena of ideas we have to go mainstream and let the people/public decide. In case anyone reading is not familiar with the publishing business, 99% of all books published do not sell. When a book has commercial success is a sign people are voting with their wallets and that is a good thing. In my case its not a matter of holding back new evidence so much as making sure its all properly vetted and presented accurately. Six months after Billy the Kid: An Autobiography came out, and after no new evidence being published in a commercial book for almost 70 years, Bill O'Reilly went on national TV with the story of Brushy Bill Roberts and said something to the effect of "the evidence in favor of Brushy Bill being Billy the Kid is superior to the evidence against him" or something like that. I looked at his book "Legends and Lies of the Old West" and there are a few phrases in there that almost word for word match my book. I'm not making accusations, I'm sure he had ghost writers or researchers helping him but it is curious...did he use some of my book in preparing his documentary? I don't know but its interesting that after my book came out was it time to talk about all of the "new evidence" in Brushy's favor. If your bored, take a minute to look at the attention on Brushy's story before my book came out in 2014 and after....it has exploded. Mysteries at the Museum has done shows on it twice (once with me on there) and I can tell you I get calls routinely from production companies asking me to be on TV. I turn down a lot. I have gotten calls to be on shows to talk about the John Wilkes Booth mummy, the Knights of the Golden Circle, Jesse James, etc. Some things I really hadn't done much study on. I turned all those down and they were on popular network shows you have heard of. My point is that I'm not a conspiracy guy and I'm not motivated to make money off of Brushy Bill Roberts. I just think the evidence for Brushy Bill outweighs the evidence against. Based on sales rankings, I believe my book has been the best selling book on the Kid...or very close...since it came out. The story has been on TV more than ever since 2014, interest in the story continues to grow, and more and more people are coming over to Brushy's side...even those who previously held the traditional view. All I'm saying is that a lot of people are making money on the story since 2014 and that drives more interest in the story. Any help my book has lent to that momentum, and I'm not taking credit for all of it, would not have been achieved by my posting findings exclusively on an internet forum. My book has been endorsed by Morrison's family, the Billy the Kid Museum in Hico, TX and by the general public based on the 200+ 4.5 star reviews its gotten on Amazon. That's all the credit I need. Because of the book I been able to tell Brushy's story on Travel Channel, national radio, podcasts, etc. and we just wrapped a 1 hour show on Discovery that I can't talk about because you always have to promise not to talk about it before it airs...but you will see soon. That's what its all about. Getting the story out. For the record, when I film I don't ask for any money. I'd rather they give it to the other participants so we have better talent on the show or donate it to the Billy the Kid Museum in Hico. They do pay expenses, of course. To me its more about getting the story out than making money. I do most everything at my own expense. Anything I make on the book goes back into the story one way or another. By the way, all of the historians that write the same old stories over and over for the big publishers I don't think aren't attacked over a profit motive but many of them make a living writing even though they don't offer anything new. Nothing wrong with that I guess. Its just not what I do. One of the projects I did (I won't say which) they were going to use a different historian because the original one they asked wanted too much money for an appearance and they wanted me more than him and with what he was asking couldn't pay us both under the budget. I told them to pay him what he wanted, I'd do it for free. Everyone has motives. Mine is just to get Brushy's story into the open and let the public decide.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2020 9:36:58 GMT -5
Daniel I think your book is amazing. It's the only Billy the kid book I've read more than once. It's permanently on my bedside table.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2020 10:35:45 GMT -5
I wish I was more clear but I didn't think you were motivated by money or were one of the authors who had crossed over to the dark side. I consider you a full jedi knight. Possibly even Yoda when it comes to the subject of Billy the kid. Sorry for the Starwars reference. I hope you write another book. But definitely reveal some details of the new book on this forum first.
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45colt
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Post by 45colt on Nov 6, 2020 11:43:48 GMT -5
Daniel I think your book is amazing. It's the only Billy the kid book I've read more than once. It's permanently on my bedside table. Thank you! I really appreciate it!
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45colt
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Post by 45colt on Nov 6, 2020 11:44:10 GMT -5
I wish I was more clear but I didn't think you were motivated by money or were one of the authors who had crossed over to the dark side. I consider you a full jedi knight. Possibly even Yoda when it comes to the subject of Billy the kid. Sorry for the Starwars reference. I hope you write another book. But definitely reveal some details of the new book on this forum first. No offense taken and I love the reference! Thank you!
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