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Post by chivato88 on Nov 9, 2019 14:24:50 GMT -5
Hard to say if people were there before or not, and I dont think you can prove it either, census dont mean a thing here, people were allowed to go where ever they wanted to, indians or no indians.Hard to believe that he was born there, I think its not impossible
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Post by nmjames on Nov 9, 2019 14:50:54 GMT -5
chivato88,
I am not going by census but by history of the area from different people. Having family members that lived in that area in the late 1800s, knowing some of the history and going to Buffalo Gap and Abilene doing research this is what I found. I know Brushy was born in 1879 so it really doesn't matter, I am just giving history for others to read and make up their own mind.
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Post by leeb on Nov 10, 2019 9:43:04 GMT -5
If brushy was born in a covered wagon passing through buffalo gap then where did he spend his childhood years? Surely you'd state where you spent your infant years as place of birth and not a wilderness stop over.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 10, 2019 22:30:12 GMT -5
You're asking a lot from the memory of a 3 year old, Brushy's age when his Aunt Catherine came and got him. Any information he gave regarding the first 2 or 3 years of his life had to come from Catherine or from his father. And then 86 years later he's possibly misquoting. The real issue here in this recent series of posts is whether or not it is even possible that he was born in Buffalo Gap as he claimed. The answer seems to be a resounding "YES".
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Post by leeb on Nov 11, 2019 12:01:10 GMT -5
Unfortunately it's a resounding no from me.In the 1850's BG was a stopping post for hunters and a haven for marauding Indians. Not somewhere you'd make home with child. Settlers arrived early 1870's.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Nov 12, 2019 18:58:06 GMT -5
Unfortunately it's a resounding no from me.In the 1850's BG was a stopping post for hunters and a haven for marauding Indians. Not somewhere you'd make home with child. Settlers arrived early 1870's. Still waiting for evidence that Brushy Bill and Oliver P Roberts were 2 different men? That will never happen.
All evidence indicates that Oliver P Roberts referred to himself by the nickname, Brushy Bill, for a few years before his death. Although he had an opportunity in census, land, and marriage records to reveal that his name was William Henry Roberts, he did not. The flimsy theory that Brushy assumed the identity of Oliver Roberts in the 1920, 1930, 1940, WWI draft registration, land records, and marriage certificates of Mollie Brown and Lizzie Allison, and the death certificate of Loutecia Ballard Roberts is not credible.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 13, 2019 9:36:39 GMT -5
" The flimsy theory that Brushy assumed the identity of Oliver Roberts in the 1920, 1930, 1940, WWI draft registration, land records, and marriage certificates of Mollie Brown and Lizzie Allison, and the death certificate of Loutecia Ballard Roberts is not credible."
That's more than just a theory. It is what he indicated actually happened and it is entirely possible that it happened just that way. Some very intelligent individuals have done a great deal of research that indicates it did. There's no "proof" either way. So goes the debate.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Nov 14, 2019 17:24:57 GMT -5
" The flimsy theory that Brushy assumed the identity of Oliver Roberts in the 1920, 1930, 1940, WWI draft registration, land records, and marriage certificates of Mollie Brown and Lizzie Allison, and the death certificate of Loutecia Ballard Roberts is not credible." That's more than just a theory. It is what he indicated actually happened and it is entirely possible that it happened just that way. Some very intelligent individuals have done a great deal of research that indicates it did. There's no "proof" either way. So goes the debate. It IS just a theory. Granted, that is what he said, which does not make it so. It is not possible that it happened that way. He also said he lived 3 years with the Yaqui Indians; was a Texas Ranger, deputy U S Marshal, knew Belle Starr, caught ponies in the Shetland Islands, etc.
The "very intelligent individuals" apparently have not shared their discoveries. Where is their proof that Brushy Bill and Oliver P Roberts were 2 different men. Where is their proof that J. H Roberts and Mary Adelaide DUNN were Brushy's parents? (Caroline DUNN was the first wife of Henry Oliver Roberts, father of Oliver P. alias Brushy Bill).
There is proof that Oliver Roberts and his parents all lived in Sebastian County, Arkansas, where he was born; then moved to Hopkins County, Texas (where "Brushy" returned dead cousin "Ollie's" belongings to them); then the Roberts' moved to Van Zandt County, Texas; then to Little River County, Arkansas (where "Brushy" registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, complete with his exact birthday of 26 August 1879). "Brushy", who claimed to have been born in 1859, was not required by law to register. Oliver P. Roberts was required by law to register for the draft.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 14, 2019 19:07:44 GMT -5
Please. TTT, you know I enjoy debating this but we're just rehashing old ground here. You already know my opinion about all those points you make. And I know yours about all the points I make. So why do we keep going over it and over it? My purpose was to suggest that when a person makes a "statement" about a historical event then it is either a fact or a lie, not a theory.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 16:44:22 GMT -5
I'm not sure where there's fuss concerning Buffalo Gap. It's like the local historian's from my hometown, they seldom (if ever) refer to the town by it's original name "New Berlin", even when citing information from when it was known as "New Berlin".
A lot of people, in my experience, will refer to a place in its present tense, not in it's former sense, so that people know precisely where they were from--- now, if you press them further, they'll say something like, "But of course in those days the town didn't exist it had no name and was nothing more than properties owned by ranchers and sharecroppers."
So this guy's argument against Brushy Bill Roberts makes no real sense to me, because no rational person would refer to a towns old name or say, "I was born between highway X and State route Y," when someone asks where you were born. That'd be like me saying that I was born in Shelby County Ohio without any other specifics.
In my own adventures of genealogy I've found UNLESS you had a detailed understanding of formation of counties, you will hit brick walls all the time. For instance, my Barker family is listed as residents of Shelby County. Problem is at some point Shelby was quartered off and Auglaize County was formed from this, and unfortunately records in Auglaize County were destroyed because of flooding so if records did exist (transferred from one county to another) they'll never be found again unless some private collector has old, old books.
The point is this: Just because something didn't exist at one point doesn't mean you dismiss claims, because context is king and nobody refers to anything in a past or former sense unless those details are asked for.
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Post by chivato88 on Aug 9, 2020 17:02:47 GMT -5
Just finished the book and really enjoyed it! I really liked the photo analysis, to me they are the same man, they're identical, I'm more comvinced today that Brushy and Billy we're the same person, even learned a few things that I didnt know about. In conclusion a good research book that I recommend and I have to say good job Daniel!😀
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 9, 2020 22:30:16 GMT -5
Just finished the book and really enjoyed it! I really liked the photo analysis, to me they are the same man, they're identical, I'm more comvinced today that Brushy and Billy we're the same person, even learned a few things that I didnt know about. In conclusion a good research book that I recommend and I have to say good job Daniel!😀 It's fair to say that "Billy the Kid, An Autobiography", is a fair reproduction of "Alias Billy the Kid", with some new photos and theories. On page 2 of the autobiography there is a picture, "Frontier Mother", identified as Mary Adeline Dunn, also illustrated on p. 58 of "Alias Billy the Kid" and identified by a granddaughter of Henry Oliver Roberts as Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson in an interview with William Tunstill (see pp. 35-36, "Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same"). Speculation that Pvt William S Murphy and Brushy were one and the same (p. 83) is nonsense, for William S Murphy, an attorney, (26 Jan 1866 - 10 Feb 1928) is buried in Bennington Cemetery, Bennington, Bryan County, Oklahoma. His pension application shows that he served in M1, US Voluntary Cavalry. He died in 1926. Brushy died in 1950.
Still waiting for proof that Brushy Bill and Oliver Pleasant Roberts were 2 different men, since Brushy registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, in Little River County, Arkansas, and his parents, Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts lived in Little River County.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 9:04:57 GMT -5
I didn't really believe Brushy was BTK but my perception and opinion have changed in the last few months. I spend about 4 hours every night reading posts on this message board. Daniel's book was epic. I hope he discovers more information and writes another book. The complex details in Brushy's story are too hard to deny and those weird eye brows being the same. Wayne Land's detailed photo analysis and Daniel's book have given me faith that Brushy was legit. I'm a new kid on the block as far as being a fan of Billy the kid is concerned. There's definitely nothing wrong with believing Brushy is The Kid. I think people believe in far crazier things than that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 10:05:32 GMT -5
I have a feeling there could be quite a few mistakes in these old census records. I'm currently trying to get a passport for my Indonesian girlfriend but all her documents have mistakes in them. The policeman who issued her driver's license spelled her name wrong and got her birthday wrong aswell. Also her Indonesian national identity card has her birth year wrong. Also her birth certificate has her father's surname which is different to her surname on her license and other I.D card. Sorry if this is off topic but I just thought it might show that even in this day and age that government issued documents can be very wrong. Which is why I believe in Wayne's analysis and Daniel Edwards' research more than some old records from late 1800s early 1900s.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 10, 2020 19:08:37 GMT -5
I have a feeling there could be quite a few mistakes in these old census records. I'm currently trying to get a passport for my Indonesian girlfriend but all her documents have mistakes in them. The policeman who issued her driver's license spelled her name wrong and got her, and occasionally n birthday wrong aswell. Also her Indonesian national identity card has her birth year wrong. Also her birth certificate has her father's surname which is different to her surname on her license and other I.D card. Sorry if this is off topic but I just thought it might show that even in this day and age that government issued documents can be very wrong. Which is why I believe in Wayne's analysis and Daniel Edwards' research more than some old records from late 1800s early 1900s. I agree that mistakes exist in government records - spelling, age, birthplace, missing family members, adoptees, and even gender can be wrong. Competent genealogists and researchers always search for substantiating records and other information. The fact that census records from 1880 through 1930 show that Oliver Roberts was born about 1879 cannot be ignored, for Brushy himself said he was born in 1878 when he registered for the WWI draft. That approximate birth date is supported by information provided by his niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon.
Did the research of Daniel Edwards reveal any new facts?
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