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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 24, 2017 19:00:58 GMT -5
Thain,
"The story is in Killed in New Mexico Died in Texas."
Is this the same book where the author said that Brushy married Ann White in 1908 in Canton, and was divorced shortly thereafter? Didn’t the author believe Brushy’s story that he was in Mexico from 1907 until 1914? Is there a 1908 Van Zandt marriage record of Ann White? There is a Van Zandt County marriage record of Anna Lee and Oliver Roberts in 1909, followed by a divorce in 1910. Brushy also married Mollie Brown in 1912 in Van Zandt County before he returned from Mexico. Brushy was correct when he said he married Mollie Brown of Coleman County. Mary A. “Mollie” Brown was the daughter of John Martin Brown (1853 – 1942) and Nancy Caroline Gipson (1854 – 1907).
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Post by Guest on Jul 25, 2017 10:21:47 GMT -5
What does the new cover look like on Billy the Kid: An Autobiography-Daniel a Edwards (2014) New version- t.co/8VPTzJ7dla?amp=1
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Post by MissyS on Jul 27, 2017 16:32:42 GMT -5
Great point Thain. I've tried to say that before but you said it best. I'll add that Brushy had to have gotten his information either from his Aunt Catherine or from his father and who knows whether he was able to repeat their words exactly. For any members that do not have a copy of Alias BTK, what he said was "Sometime in the late 50's my father moved to Buffalo Gap, Taylor County, Texas. I was born at Buffalo Gap on December 31, 1859, the last hour of the last day of the year." There is absolutely nothing about that statement that can be refuted since there is a Taylor County and an area within that county known as Buffalo Gap and the area did exist in 1859. Brushy did not call it a "city". He did not say when it became a city or town, etc. Even if it was not officially settled in 1859 (questionable) and was home to an indian population (questionable) that doesn't mean Brushy's parents could not have been trying to settle there as of the late 50's. I suspect Catherine (or his father) told him he was born there using such words as "we were living in the area they call Buffalo Gap when you were born". This is the problem with getting at the truth about Brushy. The naysayers pick apart everything he ever said or "allegedly" said and as soon as they find any single word that doesn't make sense "to them" they think they've found the smoking gun that proves he was not who he said he was because he uttered one word that "might have been" incorrect historically. If all of us were subjected to such scrutiny I fear there wouldn't be a single one of us who could be trusted to say who we really are. Every time you met a person and they introduced themselves you'd have to go search the census to find out who they really were. It's exasperating to say the least. Wayne, You are so right, Im reading in the Lost Interviews book, Brushy said "I was born in Buffalo Gap, Texas, That's Taylor County Now..I don't know what it was back then? Buffalo Gap was no more than a place where there was a Good spring of water, and about three or four families living close by. I'v been by there a few times in the last thirty years or so and it's growed up some" Wow! His words were so misunderstood, he was making reference to the name of the county at the time he was speaking, it's obvious in his wording that he didnt know what the land was called back then. Brushy said it was no more than a good spring of water, and just a few families living close by, Brushy knew the land was rugged at the time, and admitted that, he never claimed it was a town or even a settlement, what he did say makes sense, because where there is good water chances are there were people around it. Can it be proven there wasn't? Can anyone beyond a doubt say there were no people, no families no one anywhere in or around the area back in 1859? Even if there absolutely were nothing, and no one, it doesn't prove Brushy wasn't born in a covered wagon passing through? (just a thought)
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 27, 2017 22:43:15 GMT -5
Good point Missy. I get very tired of folks taking the position that if there's no written record of it anywhere then it didn't happen. That mentality is not going to get anyone closer to the true facts of it all.
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fritz
First Post
Posts: 1
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Post by fritz on Nov 2, 2019 17:15:31 GMT -5
Does anyone know where to locate if one exists a signature of William S. Murphy?
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 3, 2019 14:15:15 GMT -5
What ever it was called or not called, the "'area' known 'in 1948' as "Buffalo Gap" did exist in 1859 and a baby could have been born there even if it was at a camp site where the parents were staying. When a baby decides to come, it comes without first questioning the mother "are we in a town?". And Catherine Antrim would likely have know where her half nephew was born and she would have told him once he was old enough to remember. Why is that so hard to believe? I don't get it! When Brushy was asked where he was born the answer was "the area known as Buffalo Gap". He didn't say "the town of Buffalo Gap" and he didn't say "the area known in 1859 as Buffalo Gap". So long as the "area" was known by that name at the time he was asked the question, there is absolutely nothing in his answer that indicates it was a lie.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Nov 3, 2019 19:11:30 GMT -5
"So long as the "area" was known by that name at the time he was asked the question, there is absolutely nothing in his answer that indicates it was a lie."
That does not mean he was born there. Nor has anything been found that substantiates his statement that he was born in Buffalo Gap. The gap in the Callahan divide has existed for centuries, although when it first became known as Buffalo Gap remains a mystery.
Brushy Bill said many things that have not been verified as correct.
Other unsubstantiated claims: Texas Ranger, Pinkerton detective, deputy U S Marshall, member of anti horse thief organization, son of J. H Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn, half-brother of James Roberts, cousin of Ollie Roberts, stage line guard, rode on Buffalo Bill's ranch, Rough Rider in Cuba, broke horses for Tom Waggoner, rounded up ponies in the Shetland Islands, lived 3 years with Yaqui Indians in Mexico, won the Cheyenne roundup championship, went to boxing school in Cincinnati, plainclothes detective in Gladewater, lookout for Belle Starr, was with Buffalo Bill wild west show, was with Pawnee Bill wild west show, had his own wild west show for 2 years, sent to Argentina by Cattlemen's Association.
Oliver P Roberts was a big windy who could spin a good yarn.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 4, 2019 10:01:27 GMT -5
I didn't say it "means he was born there". I simply insist however, that his statement "may" be true regardless of when Buffalo Gap became known as Buffalo Gap or when it became a town. So let's drop the whole "Buffalo Gap didn't exist in 1859" business. That's pointless.
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Post by leeb on Nov 4, 2019 13:31:39 GMT -5
But buffalo gap didn't exist in 1859? You can't change facts to suit yourself?
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Post by sushiadam on Nov 5, 2019 13:53:45 GMT -5
But buffalo gap didn't exist in 1859? You can't change facts to suit yourself? It's like you didn't read a single word. You do realize that places exist before they're incorporated into official towns? The fact that he called it "the area now known as" actually ties right in with what you're saying.
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Post by nmjames on Nov 5, 2019 18:39:13 GMT -5
Brushy said: "Some time in the late fifties my father moved to Buffalo Gap. Taylor County, Texas. I was born at Buffalo Gap on December 31, 1859, the last hour of the last day of the year." page 14 1955 Alias Billy The Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 8, 2019 18:14:30 GMT -5
OK. I don't know what it's going to take to clarify this point but I'll try one more time and then I'm done. In 1859 John and Mary Adeline Roberts, for some reason, were in a sparsely populated area of Texas when little William Henry was born. They may have been there all alone or maybe there were a few other settlers there. But later the parents learned that the area where the birth occurred had become a town called "Buffalo Gap". When little William was old enough to remember he was told by an adult relative, either his father, his mother, or his half aunt Catherine, that he was born in "Buffalo Gap". They didn't see the need to specify that the name of the area was new. Many years later William made the statement repeated above by nmjames. The statement was not a lie.
That is what I believe happened and no one on here has offered any real proof that it can't be correct.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Nov 8, 2019 22:59:32 GMT -5
OK. I don't know what it's going to take to clarify this point but I'll try one more time and then I'm done. In 1859 John and Mary Adeline Roberts, for some reason, were in a sparsely populated area of Texas when little William Henry was born. They may have been there all alone or maybe there were a few other settlers there. But later the parents learned that the area where the birth occurred had become a town called "Buffalo Gap". When little William was old enough to remember he was told by an adult relative, either his father, his mother, or his half aunt Catherine, that he was born in "Buffalo Gap". They didn't see the need to specify that the name of the area was new. Many years later William made the statement repeated above by nmjames. The statement was not a lie. That is what I believe happened and no one on here has offered any real proof that it can't be correct. Your hypothesis is all true if Brushy Bill told the truth, except Brushy did lie when he said he was born in Buffalo Gap. He was born in Bates Township, Sebastian County, Arkansas, 26 August 1879 to Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson.
These facts remain. No one one this board or anywhere else has found any evidence that John H Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn Roberts were the parents of Brushy Bill, or even existed.
Brushy referred to Katherine Ann (Kathleen) Bonney as the half-sister of of Mary Adeline Dunn Roberts. No one one this board or anywhere else has found any evidence that Catherine McCarty was ever known as Katherine Bonney, or that she had a half-sister named Mary Adeline Dunn.
The fabricated genealogy chart of William Henry Roberts on p. 90 of "The Return of the Outlaw Billy the Kid" is as authentic as a $3 bill.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 9, 2019 7:58:39 GMT -5
Wow! I'm surprised you feel that way TTT. I would have thought I had you convinced Brushy was the real deal. Oh well! Maybe later?
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Post by nmjames on Nov 9, 2019 11:33:05 GMT -5
On February 1, 1858, the Seventh Texas Legislature decreed that part of the territory which was formerly in Bexar and Travis Counties was to be formed into a new county to be named Taylor County, for the three Taylor brothers who died in the Alamo. However, even with the creation of the county, there was no settlement in Taylor County. Indians, the Civil War, and the barren land made the county almost uninhabited until about 1874.
The famous Hashknife Ranch, owned by John N. Simpson, was established in 1875, with the main dwelling located just west of the present ACU hill. It is estimated that in 1878, the county had approximately one hundred residents.
In 1874, George Robertson who was a Austin area photographer was employed by studio owner William James Oliphant to document an 1874 expedition to Buffalo Gap in Taylor County, Texas. The 1874 Buffalo hunt photography collection is composed of 10 photographs taken by Robertson.
Wayne here is a question I have, Brushy said he was born at Buffalo Gap in 1859. He said his mother died when he was about three years old in 1862 and that his father fought in the Civil War. Brushy states that after the Civil War his father came back to Buffalo Gap looking for them. Brushy also states that he left Silver City, NM. in 1872 and went back to Texas to see his people. His first stop was Buffalo Gap. So if this is true, J.H. Roberts left his wife with a young child in land that was uninhabited because of the Civil War and Indians. Brushy even went back in 1872 before there was anything there. In George Robertson's pictures, you can see what Buffalo Gap looked like in 1874. Do you feel that Brushy was born in Buffalo Gap and that his father left them there?
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