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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 12, 2017 21:04:38 GMT -5
TTT, the guy on the left was long thought to be Jesse James, I even bought a Jesse James lighter with that guy on it but now it's pretty much accepted by most that it isn't him. Here is a picture of whom many believed was Catherine Antrim, now we know it isn't and all the people that questioned the photo are not considered conspiracy nuts, they were right to question it and the only reason most don't believe it is her is because the guy that discovered it admitted he has no idea who it is. Maybe the conspiracy nuts kept asking him about it. I can think of at least one outlaw that was presumed dead and later found alive. There are a whole lists of people that faked their own death and were later caught. So it does happen. The cops that caught some of these people were not really considered conspiracy nuts, they were just right and then proved they were right or at least they asked the right questions. You can go on youtube and look up a list of conspiracies that were proven to be true and now all those conspiracy nuts were proven right. Conspiracies do happen and that is a fact and maybe believing in something without proof makes you a nut but that is a two way street. For example, I think its nuts to believe Jesse didn't fake his death without proof. But asking questions doesn't make anyone a conspiracy nut. It's like when my teacher said there are no dumb questions but then later she asked me asked me which came first, the chicken or the egg. But actually I thought that was kind of dumb because the chicken has to come first so it can sit on the egg to incubate it or it won't hatch. But remember when people were persecuted for believing the world wasn't flat? Those people were called nuts.
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Post by manhunter on Oct 7, 2017 10:57:31 GMT -5
Guess I will chime in here and hopefully not stir the pot nor trying to sway beliefs one way or another. J. Frank Dalton was a close family friend to the Travis family in Van Zandt County and was known to visit there many times. I have a photo of him and my great uncle Frank in front of the old Travis homestead that was passed down to me from my father.
Growing up, we were all told, based on family folklore and beliefs, that Dalton was in fact Jesse James. Without question he had a relationship with my great grandfather, Elbert Dewitt Travis, who served in the Mississippi Calvary before moving to Texas in and around 1870 with his brother, John Rowland Travis. John Rowland Travis settled in the Jacksonville, Texas area. Elbert Dewitt Travis married Ann Patterson, and they settled in Van Zandt County, Texas. The family land and former homestead is near the Interstate 20 and State Highway 64 intersections. The southeast corner of this intersection has been searched numerous times over the years by treasure hunters looking for one of the believed Jesse James buried treasures. To my knowledge it has never been found.
The belief of Dalton being Jesse James was never questioned by my grandfather, James Walter Travis, nor my father, Walter Raymond Travis. It was just an understood fact within the family. My father growing up spent alot of time with his uncle, and my great uncle, Dewitt Travis. It was further always believed and passed on from him, Dewitt Travis, that Dalton was in fact Jesse James.
HOWEVER, ....., with all the above being said, based on my years of research and communications with other experts on the matter, I am not one to say without doubt that Dalton was in fact Jesse James. I can see many facts and evidence that could possibly point to that being the case, and conversely say the same about it NOT being the case.
Just like the story and discussions regarding Billy the Kid and Brushy Bill Roberts, it certainly raises many questions, pro and con, and gives us material for research, conversation, debate, and frankly, entertainment.
I have always been interested in the stories surrounding my great grandfather, Elbert Dewitt Travis, and the beliefs that he was in fact William Quantrell (Quantrill). That story I do not believe and see no evidence to support such. His position and activity within the Knights of the Golden Circle (KGC) seem to be well documented, and were also part of the family folklore and history passed down through the family. But that would be the topic of another thread at another time.
Hope you all have a great day and weekend.
Manhunter
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 7, 2017 13:32:45 GMT -5
I don't post much about Dalton because I guess he just never intrigued me as much as Brushy did. But I do feel very strongly that the death photos of Jesse James do not show the same man that is in the most famous photo of Jesse. And I will assert that the live Jesse photo we see so much is indeed the real Jesse. The reason I think so is because of the similarities of that photo and several other Jesse photos, while the death photo doesn't match up well with any of the others. I'll say again I am not convinced Dalton was Jesse but I am convinced Jesse faked his own death, which means Dalton "possibly" was telling the truth. The other thing that makes me lean toward him being Jesse is that Brushy identified him as such and I believe Brushy was truly the real Billy The Kid. It is possible Brushy lied in identifying Dalton as Jesse and it is possible he really believed it but was simply mistaken.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 7, 2017 18:46:23 GMT -5
Manhunter,
Glad to have a Travis descendant, a resident of Van Zandt County, and a J. Frank Dalton researcher on board.
J. Frank Dalton was an interesting character. His life before 1930 remains a mystery. He was in McLennan Co, TX, in the 1930 census, and in Gregg Co, TX, in the 1940 census. Facts he provided seem to change to fit the circumstances. He applied for, and received a pension from the State of Texas as Frank Dalton. He then signed an affidavit a year or two later in Lawton, Oklahoma, swearing he was Jesse Woodson James, and revised his date of birth. Dalton said he served with Quantrill's guerrilla's under William T. "Bloody Bill" Anderson. He also said Bloody Bill was not killed in 1864, and that he had visited Bloody Bill at his farm near Brownwood many times. The Bill Anderson that lived near Brownwood came to Brown County in 1863 from Stone County, Missouri, and his name was William Columbus Anderson. William Columbus Anderson married Martha Elizabeth Anderson, the sister of my great-great-grandmother, Harriet C. Anderson Clements.
After J. Frank Dalton broke his hip, and wanted to be admitted to a V A hospital, he wrote his congressman and said the he had been in every war since the Civil War, including WWI when he was gassed at the front lines (at the age of 68).
J. Frank Dalton claimed to be over 100, and photographs show a very old man. Photographs of Brushy Bill show a much younger man.
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Post by manhunter on Oct 7, 2017 22:09:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome Texas Truth Teller. There are just enough holes in Dalton's story to cause me to lean to the side of him not being JWJ, but there are likewise enough facts there to cause one to at least look at them and speculate that if not the truth, ....., then he certainly put together a damn good story, ....., possibly with the assistance from some conspirators.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 8, 2017 11:06:54 GMT -5
Manhunter, Dalton made many statements that were not true. He contributed articles to "The Crittendon Memoirs". Dalton said the real name of William Quantrell (sic) was Charles Hart(p.371). Not true. The Quantrill family lived in Ohio in the 1850 census, Tuscawaras County, microfilm page 76b, line 7. William C. was 7 years old. The family is incorrectly indexed as Guantvill.
On page 372 of the Crittenden memoirs, Dalton said that Bill Anderson, supposed to be killed in Ray County, Missouri during the war, died about six years ago(1927) in Brown County where he had a small ranch, and had been living since shortly after the war.
On page 372 of the Crittenden Memoirs,Dalton said he was 87, and that he joined Quantrell (sic) on March 8, 1863, the day he was 15. According to Dalton,that would mean he was born 8 March 1848, before later swearing in an affidavit that he was born 5 September 1847. Dalton stated he had been a bona fide resident of Texas since 8 March 1848 on his pension application. Dalton wrote a note dated 7 June 1947 to the Texas Comptroller, Mr. Sheppard. Dalton's printed letterhead included his date of birh, 8 March 1848.
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Post by manhunter on Oct 8, 2017 14:10:02 GMT -5
TTT, as I said, I lean more towards him being the source of a lot of stories and misrepresentations. Today we have the benefit of access to research for validating or repudiating, ....., which was not available during his time or that of my family and ancestors, and would allow him and others to be more convincing in their stories.
But it's fun trying to figure things out on ALL of these, ie: Billy the Kid, Jesse James, Quantrell, etc.....
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 8, 2017 17:07:24 GMT -5
Manhunter, It is entertaining to search for information about characters who were reported as living long after their death.
Before the internet, only a few had access to information that is now accessible by everyone.
This is a transcription of the will of Jesse James' mother, Zerelda Cole James Samuel, in case you have not seen it. ----------------------------------- Will of Zerelda Cole James Samuel Page 1. In the name of God_Amen. I, Zerelda Samuel, of the County of Clay in the State of Missouri, being in good bodily health and of a disposing mind and memory and being desirous of settling my worldly affairs whilst I have strength and capacity to do so. Therefore, do make, publish, and declare this to be my last will and testament herein expressly revoking and making null and void all last will and testaments by me at any time heretofore made: And first, and principally, I commend my soul to God, who gave it, hoping and assuredly believing, through the only merits of Jesus Christ my Savior, to be made Partaker Of life everlasting: My body I commit to the earth to be buried by my Executor, hereinafter named , in the Baptist Cemetery at Kearney, in Said County of Clay, between my two dead sons, Archibald Peyton Samuel and Jesse W. James in such decent manner as shall befit my condition and circumstances in life: And as to all of the worldly estate, real, person, and mixed, and wheresoever situate, whereof I shall be the owner at the time of my death, I dispose thereof in manner and forms the following, to wit: - First: It is my will that all of my just debts, funeral expenses, and the costs and charges of the execution of this last will and testament be paid by my Executor as soon as practicable after my death. Second: I have heretofore given to my daughter Sarah Louisa Nicholson what I regard as a full, adequate, and liberal share of my property: I therefore give and bequeath to said Sarah Louisa Nicholson, in and by this last will and testament, the sum of one dollar_and no more_and I direct my Executor to pay said Sarah Louisa Nicholson said sum of one dollar in full of all gifts, bequests, and devises to her from me. Third: I have heretofore given to my grand-daughter
Page 2: Mary S. Barr, and done for her that which is a full and adequate expression of my bounty to her and of my love and affection for her_wherefore, I give and bequeath to said Mary S. Barr, in and by this will and testament, the sum of one dollar_and no more_and I direct my Executor to pay said Mary S. Barr said sum of one dollar in full of all gifts, bequests, and devises to her from me. Fourth: I give and bequeath all of the rest, residue, and remainder of my person estate, absolutely, to my son, Alexander F. James, usually known as Frank James. Fifth: I have during all the years that my husband Dr. Reuben Samuel has been a patient in the insane asylum at St Joseph, Missouri, at my own costs and charges, maintained and provided for him therein and this is as ample and faithful a manner as my circumstances permitted and inasmuch as, if he survives me, he will be tenant By the curtesy of the real estate that I shall own at the time of my death it is not necessary that I should_ nor do I hereby_make for him in this last will and testament specific or other provision, or make him any bequest or devise. Sixth: I give and bequeath to my grandson Jesse E. James_son of my dead son, Jesse W. James_the sum of seven hundred dollars ($700) and I charge him the payment of said sum, so given and bequeathed to said Jesse E. James, on the following described real estate belonging to me, (Subject to the tenancy by the curtesy therein of my said husband, and if he survives me) situate in said County of Clay and thus described, to_wit: A part of the North-West quarter of Section No. 19 in Township No.53 of Range No.30, and a part of the East half of the North-East quarter of Section No. 24 in Township No. 53 of Range No. 31, containing in the aggregate 40 acres_and the whole bounded as follows: to_wit: Beginning at a point on the South line of said North West quarter of said Section No. 19 which is 6 and 86/100 chains East from East from the South_West corner of said quarter section, _said point of beginning to South-East corner of J. B. Crook’s two acres on March 2, 1902,_Thence running East to a point which is distant 80 poles from said South-West corner of said quarter section, thence running North 31 ½ degrees West 68 poles from to a point thence running North 14 degrees West 12 poles to a point, thence running North 34 degrees East 18 poles to a spring, thence running North 33 degrees West 43 & 4/100 poles to a point, thence running South 59 & 24/100 poles to a point, thence running East 11 & 8/100 poles to a point thence running East 54 links to a point, thence running South 12 & 4/100 chains to the North West corner of said J. B. Crook’s two acres on March 29th 1902 thence running East 6 & 32/100 chains to North East corner of said J. B. Crook’s two acres on March 29th 1902, and thence running South three & 16/100 chains to the point of beginning. And at said real estate, containing forty acres, subject to said claim in the sum of Seven hundred Dollars ($700) and subject to the tenancy by the curtesy of said husband also, if he survive me, I give and devise to my said son, Alexander F. James, and I direct him to pay said sum, so charged or said real estate within six months after my death to said Jesse E. James. Seventh: I give and bequeath, also, so my said grandson, Jesse E. James, the further sum of three Hundred Dollars ($300) and I charge the payment of said sum so bequeathed and given to said Jesse E. James on all of the rest, residue, and remainder of
Page 4: my real estate, situate in Said County of Clay containing about 36 acres: and the said rest, residue, and remainder of my real estate situate in said County of Clay, containing about 36 acres, subject to said charge in the sum of three hundred dollars, and subject also to the tenancy of to by the curtesy thein of my said husband if he survie me. I give and devise to my son John T. Samuel and my daughter Fannie Q. Hall, equally share and share alike: And I direct said John T. Samuel and Fannie Q. Hall to pay said sum, so charged on the rest, residual, and remainder of my real estate to said Jesse E. James within six months after my death. Eighth: I hereby nominate, constitute and appoint my son, Alexander F. James, Executor of this, my last will and testament, and expressly request that he be not required to give any bond as such Executor. In testimony whereof, I, Zerelda Samuel, the said testatrix, have to this my last will and testament set my hand and affixed my seal on this the 17th day of October 1907.
s/Z Samuel (SEAL) Signed, sealed, published and declared by the said testatrix Zerelda Sameul as and for her last will and testament, in the presence of us and of each of us, who, at her request, and in her presence, and in the presence of each other, have hereto set our hand as witnesses thereunto this 17th day of October 1907. Signed Frank Crowley George Riley
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 8, 2017 18:52:45 GMT -5
Manhunter, This is an interesting article from the Liberty, Missouri, paper. Zerelda was 65. She was born January 1825. The article was published in 1880.
Transcription:
MET TO MOURN TOGETHER _________________
Mrs. Quantrell’s Visit to the Mother of Frank and Jesse James
Liberty, Mo., Oct. 7. — In a quiet country farm house in one of the most romantic spots in Clay county a reunion took place a few days ago that has no parallel in the social annals of this country. The mothers of three of the most famous outlaws of this century met, embraced, wept, and talked over the past. Two of these outlaws are dead, but the third and smartest of the trio still lives, and was present at the meeting. The women were Mrs. Zerelda Samuels, mother of Frank and Jesse James, and Mrs. Caroline C. Quantrell, mother of William C. Quantrell, the noted guerrilla chief. Mrs. Quantrell lives in Dover, Ohio, and came all the way to Missouri to visit Mrs. Samuels. Mrs. Quantrell is not over five feet in height, and is 67 years old. For the past two years she has been collecting material for a life of her son, whom she does not believe to have been the man of blood that he was painted. W. C. Quantrell was born at Dover, O., July 31, 1837, and was a school teacher when he left Ohio in 1859 and went to the Kansas border. Mrs. Quantrell received two letters from him in 1860, and never afterward heard of him except through the papers. The James boys served under him, and as Mrs. Samuels explained, one of his rules, the violation of which was punishable with death, was that no letters should be written to father, mother, sister, sweetheart, on any one. Mrs. Samuels is 65 years old and a much larger woman than Mrs. Quantrell. She has but one arm, the other having been blown off by a Pinkerton bomb when the detectives had not the courage to enter the house. Mrs. Samuels' house is surrounded with flowers and vines, and in one corner of the yard is the grave of Jesse James. Flowers and vines grow over it, and beautiful sea shells are laid in order around. There is not a day that it is not visited by strangers. Frank James and his wife and Mrs. Jesse James and her boy were at the old home last week. Frank is in the clothing business in Dallas, and Jesse’s wife lives in Kansas City where her boy works in a real estate office.
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Post by manhunter on Oct 9, 2017 18:40:55 GMT -5
Thanks TTT for sharing. That is definitely some interesting reading and sheds light on some of the relationships that exited within the extended families.
It appears that you have done some very in depth research on these characters.
Thanks again for sharing.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 10, 2017 12:14:59 GMT -5
Manhunter, Your great-uncle, Elbert DeWitt Travis Jr., befriended both J. Frank Dalton and Brushy Bill Roberts. Dalton said that he and DeWitt were in the “oil game”. DeWitt paid for Brushy Bill’s trip to New York where Brushy Bill supported Dalton’s story that he was Jesse James, and for his trip to Meramec Cavern to attend Dalton’s birthday celebration. DeWitt paid for Dalton’s funeral in Granbury. DeWitt attended the funerals of both J. Frank Dalton and Brushy Bill.
After J. Frank Dalton broke his hip, was hospitalized, and later signed an affidavit that he was Jesse Woodson James, other characters became involved. Some exploited his new found fame. Lester Dill and Rudy Turilli, the owners of Meramec Cavern, brought him to Meramec Cavern to live, where he was a prime attraction as Jesse James. Later he was exhibited as Jesse James by Jesse Jame III, an alias of Orvus Lee Howk.
After Dalton’s release from the V A Hospital in Dallas, Ola May Everhard, who did not know Dalton, went to Centerville, Texas, met him, and became his friend and caretaker. She believed he was her cousin, for Dalton told her that his mother, the mother of Bob and Charlie Ford, and her great-grandmother were sisters. (None of that is true.) She befriended and cared for Dalton, and paid for Dalton’s cemetery marker in the Granbury Cemetery that reads, “Jesse Woodson James”. She also amended his death certificate, and changed the date of birth and place of birth to the historically accepted birth date and place of Jesse Woodson James who is buried in Missouri (Find A Grave Memorial# 539).
Ola Everhard wrote a 340 manuscript about J. Frank Dalton. Her stated intention was to prove that he was Jesse Woodson James.
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Post by manhunter on Oct 10, 2017 15:02:55 GMT -5
TTT,
Thanks for the information. My dad had always told me that Uncle Dewitt made a fortune in the East Texas oil fields, but squandered it all away on gambling, booze, and friends. He died penniless. I think my dad helped pay for his burial.
Sounds like Dalton, Brushy Bill, and uncle Dewitt were the three omegos.
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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 11, 2017 0:44:22 GMT -5
I read a newspaper article today that said Brushy moved to Gladewater or somewhere during the 'oil boom'. It didn't say much else about it. I can post it later if anyone wants to see.
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Post by flugelblue on May 30, 2018 15:03:51 GMT -5
I have several Tintype Photographs of Jesse Woodson James. They will Resolve the "Issues" discussed here. Note that he hides his Injured Hand in the 'Podium Image.' *I'm showing This One, because, except for his Grooming, (needs a Shave & a Haircut) you'll note that he's wearing the Same Suit & Tie as in the long known 'Classic Portrait,' (but tied differently, here). He's also got hold of his Lapel, in a Salute of Solidarity to the secret 'Order of The Golden Circle' to which He & many of the James-Younger gang-members belonged, over the years. This Photograph should neatly settle Any Doubt you have about the long known Classic Photograph of Jesse Woodson James. Ps: you may find it interesting that I have a Circa 1856 Tintype of the Reverend Robert Sallee James.. which proves that he Didn't Die at some "California silver claim" in 1851 (which he'd asked one of his partners at the time to tell his wife). But for the Rev. Robert James, this "Search for Silver & Gold" was the only story that "The Mrs." would accept, as Reason Enough for him to leave their home for any extended amount of time. What the Rev. Robert James really did, was Left His Wife (who constantly berated him & treated him like a handy man) for Another Woman several States Away! *He did tell Frank & Jesse The Truth, however -& both of them used their dad's "2'nd family" as another place to "hide-out" at, when they were On the Run. -Flugelblue! Attachments:
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Post by flugelblue on May 30, 2018 15:56:21 GMT -5
*See my page for photos of Billy The Kid -& Jesse Woodson James. Doc Holliday is "coming soon" -Flugelblue!
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